408 build morphing to 427.... Any thoughts?

[Tyla's toy]

100k on a bronco? I can find other things to spend a 100k on, going to be a sweet build. why don't you build a all aluminum 427 block?

One of the largest reasons was I wanted to be able to smoke a 38" 15.5 with ease... nothing better than a big tire howling! Ten I would need a $120k for the all aluminum block, this build is for me and my daughter over the winter she loves doing the builds. Did a jeep a 68 Camaro and a 67 chevelle a dozen antique tractors plus a couple other things with her.

pretty much have all the other toys I need and I have wanted one like this for a while.

you know the old saying work hard play harder! Headed out now to build a stonewall directly on the water 25mph wind with a windchill of probably 10 luckily Ill have the engine to ponder over to keep me warm!

 

[Tyla's toy]

Lol....I'm very familiar with the challenges. But in reality, they are trivial. A pro built 427 is every bit as reliable as a 408.

Question still stands for Tyla.

It just may be a 427 yet, the cost is not noticeable. I talked to a guy in fla last night that had a great motor built by Keith. I believe 400 ft lbs off idle im waiting for the dyno results.

 

[C Saporito]

http://classicbroncos.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/33505/ppuser/19624

My 408ci, the main reason I didn't go with a 427 crank was the pain in the ass it is to clearance the skirt of the block for the rods, I built the motor myself. I doubt I'll miss the 19 cubes.

 

[airbur]

My 408ci, the main reason I didn't go with a 427 crank was the pain in the ass it is to clearance the skirt of the block for the rods, I built the motor myself. I doubt I'll miss the 19 cubes.

Very nice work! In reality....any of these engines choices are sweet. Anything done with a 351W block is going to kick you in the pants with the skinny pedal.

Regarding clearancing, I had never built an engine before.....most I had done is routine maintenance. I was able to clearance the block with tools in my garage and got everything to rotate perfectly. It's not a big deal and the tiny amounts of material I had to take off mean nothing to the 351W block.

 

[Tyla's toy]

Very nice work! In reality....any of these engines choices are sweet. Anything done with a 351W block is going to kick you in the pants with the skinny pedal.

Regarding clearancing, I had never built an engine before.....most I had done is routine maintenance. I was able to clearance the block with tools in my garage and got everything to rotate perfectly. It's not a big deal and the tiny amounts of material I had to take off mean nothing to the 351W block.

Any experience with the dart blocks?

 

[bmc69]

from a builders point the 408 is less work and issues if were talking 4.030 bore builds rather then 4.155 aftermarket block builds. 4.030 bore builds need over 4.10 inch of stroke to get 425+ inches and you start running into rod/block/cam clearance issues and it makes the motor over square meaning more stroke then bore which is great for torque but not so much for a quick accelerating rotating assemblys. the rod ratio is also better with a 408 and overall rotating mass/bob weight is usually less with the 408 builds. but it's just my person opinion to prefer the 408w over a 427w in less we start talking 4.155 bore 427w builds lol

All reasons why some of us build on the Cleveland foundation instead...which can be taken all the way out to about 466 ci or so..

I am very impressed with some of the numbers I've seen more recently, and in this thread, for 408W builds though. Way better than my decade old 408C build. I'm going to rectify that soon, though....

 

[C Saporito]

The issue wasn't so much about the amount taken off as grind contamination, assembling, tear down, wash and reassembling. Just not enough gains from 19ci's to go through the trouble. Maybe if it was intended for drag racing I'd go the other way.

 

[reynard101]

Of course there's the Ford Racing 460 small block... https://fordracingparts.com/Announcements/Z460Promo.asp

 

[Broncobowsher]

What is the plan for the accessory drive? I would be planning an Explorer front dress for packaging reasons which alters the damper, timing cover, and water pump.

 

[74strokerbronco]

Any experience with the dart blocks?

yes, 4 bolt mains on 2,3,4 and very thick cylinder walls, but I got mine in raw form and had a very good machine shop do all the prep, machining ect for my particular motor setup. there pretty rough in raw form, but most are sold prepped.

Maybe if it was intended for drag racing I'd go the other way.

good point my build is setup towards serious sand/mud drags while still being semi streetable. I wanted a very durable and fairly high revving setup which influenced my choices.

 

[74strokerbronco]

Of course there's the Ford Racing 460 small block... https://fordracingparts.com/Announcements/Z460Promo.asp

that would be sweet, it's to bad they don't offer it with the z304p cnc heads rather than just the as cast z304da heads for the small block purist there is this http://www.fordracingparts.com/circletrack/pdf/FR_S374_Series_Engine_Specs.pdf

 

[Tyla's toy]

heres dyno and pics for this option I would add the fast efi

 

[av bronco]

Don't forget headers, you cannot run a 1 1/2 primary and expect 500hp.

 

[Tyla's toy]

any thoughts on stall?

 

[Tyla's toy]

Of course there's the Ford Racing 460 small block... https://fordracingparts.com/Announcements/Z460Promo.asp

I talked with them about the 351 based stroker and their crates were not changeable so when it got here I would need to change the cam myself

 

[nvrstuk]

If $ isn't an issue then go with the Dart block. Rod ratio is perfect, super strong.

Built a 454 Dart Iron Eagle 3 yrs ago, stuffed it in an EB. Great product with several little details during build that need to be worked out. Great runner but adds a lot of cost over a 5.8 stock '94-96 roller block.

 

[Ourobos]

On a street vehicle, I would use a 3500 stall. Don't think it'll slip until it hits 3500, that's an uneducated myth. It will start pulling around 2200 or so and not fully 'flash' until it's rated RPM.

On the engine, I think both are great. No reason not to stick with a stock 351w block, they can hold 700hp to the tires all day long, even the later model blocks. The cast crank is rated at 600 FLYWHEEL horsepower, and I think you'd be safe with it, but if you have the cash, upgrade. The AFR205s are also a monster head, flow almost 300 cfm at .500" lift, and would do some work. That intake will be a bottle neck though.

I'll step up and say it, I don't care what anyone here says about it being a 'high RPM race motor' 'mustang motor' all that BS.. If half way chosen correctly, it will make so much torque down low, you won't even care. Granted, my stroker IS in a mustang, I can still tell you it would propel a 4000# truck out of the hole in a heart beat.

Here is my dyno proven 600 REAR WHEEL Horsepower 418w, it's a stock 94 block, TFS-R heads ported by Total Engine Airflow, TFS-R box intake, and a custom solid roller cam. I have $10000 in the COMPLETE engine, exhaust EVERYTHING. So it can be done on a budget :

 

[doradoguy]

from a builders point the 408 is less work and issues if were talking 4.030 bore builds rather then 4.155 aftermarket block builds. 4.030 bore builds need over 4.10 inch of stroke to get 425+ inches and you start running into rod/block/cam clearance issues and it makes the motor over square meaning more stroke then bore which is great for torque but not so much for a quick accelerating rotating assemblys. the rod ratio is also better with a 408 and overall rotating mass/bob weight is usually less with the 408 builds. but it's just my person opinion to prefer the 408w over a 427w in less we start talking 4.155 bore 427w builds lol

I was wondering the same question. I thinking 427 too. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Tyla's toy]

On a street vehicle, I would use a 3500 stall. Don't think it'll slip until it hits 3500, that's an uneducated myth. It will start pulling around 2200 or so and not fully 'flash' until it's rated RPM.

On the engine, I think both are great. No reason not to stick with a stock 351w block, they can hold 700hp to the tires all day long, even the later model blocks. The cast crank is rated at 600 FLYWHEEL horsepower, and I think you'd be safe with it, but if you have the cash, upgrade. The AFR205s are also a monster head, flow almost 300 cfm at .500" lift, and would do some work. That intake will be a bottle neck though.

I'll step up and say it, I don't care what anyone here says about it being a 'high RPM race motor' 'mustang motor' all that BS.. If half way chosen correctly, it will make so much torque down low, you won't even care. Granted, my stroker IS in a mustang, I can still tell you it would propel a 4000# truck out of the hole in a heart beat.

Here is my dyno proven 600 REAR WHEEL Horsepower 418w, it's a stock 94 block, TFS-R heads ported by Total Engine Airflow, TFS-R box intake, and a custom solid roller cam. I have $10000 in the COMPLETE engine, exhaust EVERYTHING. So it can be done on a budget :

Nice motor! Thanks for the constructive input. The motor in the pic is 13k with dart block and all the trimmings pulleys etc. delivered. Turn key. I think that's a fair number considering labor and all involved.

 

[74strokerbronco]

On a street vehicle, I would use a 3500 stall. Don't think it'll slip until it hits 3500, that's an uneducated myth. It will start pulling around 2200 or so and not fully 'flash' until it's rated RPM.

On the engine, I think both are great. No reason not to stick with a stock 351w block, they can hold 700hp to the tires all day long, even the later model blocks. The cast crank is rated at 600 FLYWHEEL horsepower, and I think you'd be safe with it, but if you have the cash, upgrade. The AFR205s are also a monster head, flow almost 300 cfm at .500" lift, and would do some work. That intake will be a bottle neck though.

I'll step up and say it, I don't care what anyone here says about it being a 'high RPM race motor' 'mustang motor' all that BS.. If half way chosen correctly, it will make so much torque down low, you won't even care. Granted, my stroker IS in a mustang, I can still tell you it would propel a 4000# truck out of the hole in a heart beat.

Here is my dyno proven 600 REAR WHEEL Horsepower 418w, it's a stock 94 block, TFS-R heads ported by Total Engine Airflow, TFS-R box intake, and a custom solid roller cam. I have $10000 in the COMPLETE engine, exhaust EVERYTHING. So it can be done on a budget :

I totally agree with you !! my 408 build (which I designed and put together myself other then block prep) while running large heads and a fairly aggressive solid roller loves the 3200 stall behind it. that being said even with that amount of stall it will pull the idle down a few hundred when in gear and you can still ease the eb around. cruises the highway at 2600 no problem but yet out of the hole or anytime you flash it the motor builds enough torque to flash 3200+ (dyno showed nearly 500 ft at 3000) . for Tyla I would say any stall from 2500-3500rpm they will be happy with. about the only drawback I've found with a high stall off roading is steep downhill decents they will freewheel to a point(not a lot but noticeable)but I love how I can dial torque to the tires by gradually loading the converter or flash it and blow the tires loose. I also agree the rpm airgap will probably be somewhat of a bottleneck, it will help the bottom end but not much while hindering mid and top, the vic jr port matched will out perform it everywhere from 2500 and up and if he runs a 2500 or higher stall the airgap is a mute point. from block to the last screw on my build I came in right around 7k$ but would have been close to that 10k mark if I didn't have good friends in the industry. got bargains on my block, crank, cam, heads etc.