6R80 vs 4R70W swap

[jmhend]

Not to complicate things but have you thought about using an AOD case with 4R70W internals? If your rebuilding I would suggest looking at this combo.

The benefit to this is that you don't need a controller and just make sure you get the TV cable off of the donor.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Not to complicate things but have you thought about using an AOD case with 4R70W internals? If your rebuilding I would suggest looking at this combo.

The benefit to this is that you don't need a controller and just make sure you get the TV cable off of the donor.

But you also don't get about half of the benifits of the 4R70W as well. The selectable lock up convertor. Sometimes it is good to be locked in the lower gears, sometimes it is good to be unlocked in the upper gears. Ford is the only one who ever did the convertor bypass in OD (at least in any well known transmission). And Ford even threw that away and went to a selectable lockup convertor.
Getting the shift points correct. You can get an AOD to shift, about the right times. But if you actually care about actual shift points, an automatic not only doing things automatically but also correctly, get the controller and set the shift points. I remember cruising the strip in Vegas once and the upshift on one gear change was just a hair off. Went in and bumped one point just a little and it fixed the cruise and didn't mess up any other shift points. Can't do that with an AOD no matter how good you are in dialing in the valve body and TV linkage.

 

[jmhend]

But you also don't get about half of the benifits of the 4R70W as well. The selectable lock up convertor. Sometimes it is good to be locked in the lower gears, sometimes it is good to be unlocked in the upper gears. Ford is the only one who ever did the convertor bypass in OD (at least in any well known transmission). And Ford even threw that away and went to a selectable lockup convertor.

Getting the shift points correct. You can get an AOD to shift, about the right times. But if you actually care about actual shift points, an automatic not only doing things automatically but also correctly, get the controller and set the shift points. I remember cruising the strip in Vegas once and the upshift on one gear change was just a hair off. Went in and bumped one point just a little and it fixed the cruise and didn't mess up any other shift points. Can't do that with an AOD no matter how good you are in dialing in the valve body and TV linkage.

Good points. I personally think k it also comes down to what you want. A lot of people complain about shift points with the 4r as well getting the dialed in. Sometimes to many options just make my head hurt. Haha

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Broncobowsher]

A year or two ago I did a reply to someone regarding tuning the shift points. As a whole it seems daunting. But if you break it down it is really pretty easy. If I was a little more energetic I would try and find that post and make it into a tech article.

 

[bigmuddy]

bigmuddy, there's nothing special about the Atlas to bolt to a 4r except buy the Atlas that is made to bolt up to a 4r.

You will probably have to trim appr. .050"-.125" off the tailshaft but maybe not. I did a couple times but I was bolting it to Klune's and Titans. On my 6r and 3.0 Atlas ProCase I had to taper the splines on the 6r output shaft appr. .025" more to allow the Atlas with the adapter to bolt up tight to the 6r. Super simple.

Ah ha! I thought this was the case. Mine has the right bolt pattern, so no adaptor needed.

THX!

 

[77BroncoWag]

are all the 6R80s the same or are there better years or years to avoid?

 

[Broncobowsher]

I'm not a 6R80 expert, but I know a bit about them...
There are different ones. You need the correct bellhousing pattern. There are multiple bolt patterns.
Some years work, some years don't. The early years had a computer built into the transmission, that doesn't work for a stand alone controller. You need a newer transmission that will work with the stand alone controller.

There is probably more, but that is a start.

 

[hossbronco]

You need to get 2011 or later so it can be controlled with a stand-alone computer. That's also when they added select-shift and the 1 way clutch for smoother shifts. 2011-2012 had a solenoid issue. 2013-2014 are good and I believe might be a little more forgiving on the tune than Gen 2. 2015-2017 is Gen 2. I believe Gen 2 has a slightly improved design on the lead frame. I'm sure there are other improvements, but somebody else here could probably give you more specific information. In my opinion, 2013-2017 all work great, and 2011-2012 would work too if you correct the solenoid issue.

 

[nvrstuk]

If you want an auto trans that shifts when it wants to shift put AOD guts in a 4r, drive an AOD, drive a C4.. If you want complete control over when & how it shifts then buy a controller and driving a 4r or 6r will change everything you don't like about wheeling, cruising, and daily driving an automatic. TOTALLY different ball game.

 

[nvrstuk]

hossbronco- lead frame improvements on the late 2014-15's made me choose a '15. Course I still had complete lead frame failure with my 2015 so it's hit or miss. Nothing like having the one and only symptom being the downshift into 1st gear at ANY speed and ANY rpm.

The OSS just tells the tranny to shift into 1st gear because it thinks you're not moving. Bit spooky doing 60+ mph and having the rear tires lock up as you slide down the road- that's what happened to me. I had several guys on a 6r80 forum text me they experienced the same issue. They all experienced driveline failures minimum when it happened to them. Guess running on ton's saved my butt!!

 

[BruiserOutdoors]

hossbronco- lead frame improvements on the late 2014-15's made me choose a '15. Course I still had complete lead frame failure with my 2015 so it's hit or miss. Nothing like having the one and only symptom being the downshift into 1st gear at ANY speed and ANY rpm.

The OSS just tells the tranny to shift into 1st gear because it thinks you're not moving. Bit spooky doing 60+ mph and having the rear tires lock up as you slide down the road- that's what happened to me. I had several guys on a 6r80 forum text me they experienced the same issue. They all experienced driveline failures minimum when it happened to them. Guess running on ton's saved my butt!!

What lead frame replacement is recommended to reduce the potential for failure?

 

[nvrstuk]

What lead frame replacement is recommended to reduce the potential for failure?

Wish someone had a difinitive answer for that question because I would pay a LOT OF MONEY to never have that happen to me again!! Holy smokes I got lucky!!

Usually Ford would be the one but of course they're the ones that didn't get it right for a few years AND their dealers "fixed" the problem by programming the PCM to have the OSS send the signal to shift down to 5th gear instead of shifting to 1st gear. This bought them several years.

Anyway, Ford didn't have any available in the entire United States when I needed mine so I bought the only brand available with all the "noticeable" upgrades that Ford puts on theirs.... hope I got a good one... Dorman seems to be what all the parts houses in my town could order.

 

[hossbronco]

I'm not positive it's what's causing the OSS issue, but the lead frames now come with a foam strip that keeps stuff from contacting the connectors at the solenoids and shorting them out. The 2015-2017 transmissions also have some dual magnet setup that helps with this. I plan on replacing the lead frame on my 2013 and installing this foam strip.

 

[hossbronco]

Apparently the 6R80 used aluminum bolts on the transfer case end. Is it just me or does that seem crazy? I realize that there's some benefit to using similar metals, but I don't think I can bring myself to use them.

 

[nvrstuk]

If length is an issue I think the PA adapter with the correct fixes is fine, especially with a 5.0. I think the extra weight of the spacer for the Speed Gems is the only drawback for their adapter with the smaller cube engines.

The 2 new leadframes I had in my hand this summer both had the foam cover over the contacts.

My leadframe contacts were spotless. I mean there wasn't any clutch "dust" much less debri at all on them. The pan was spotless. So at least in my experience there wasn't any clutch debri shorting out the terminals and the terminals are far enough apart that unless you had 1/4" long chunks of debri or a mound of sludge like you see in a 200K used C4 there's no way something will short 2 terminals together IMO.

I am hoping that Ford has a real fix besides a chunk of foam!!

I'd go with as late a year as possible. There were small upgrades over the years after 2011.

 

[hossbronco]

Agreed on the foam. Hopefully Ford's leadframe fix, if there is one, will extend to earlier models as well. Seems like a safety issue that would be worthy of a recall.

The other concern I would have on the Speed Gems adapter is potential modifications to the firewall (or move the engine forward slightly). I'm going to install a 2 inch body lift, but I'm not sure it will still be enough for the 2 inch thick adapter to clear the firewall. Also, if you're using the Advance Adapters crossmember, you'll likely either need to modify it or drill new holes in the frame for a mounting location. These are minor issues, but it's not entirely bolt-on.

 

[nvrstuk]

There was a huge recall on early models. Here's a quote:

"Ford Issues Multiple Recalls on 2011-2016 Vehicleshttps://www.motortrend.com › News › News
Apr 27, 2016 — Ford will also provide a one-time replacement for the transmission lead frame at no charge within 10 years or 150,000 miles from the start ..."

Got a friend with a Raptor 2013 (I think), who hasn't taken his in yet but knows it has a recall and plans on taking it in before the warranty is up.

 

[nvrstuk]

I don't feel comfortable recommending things per se, but the 5.0 isn't going to put out enough ooumph to kill the starter belhousing cutout that is required for the PA kit knowing that several of us with 575 + HP and 600 +ft lbs of torque have put it through for years with 40"s and larger OD tires. So far, so good.

You MUST address the TC issue by welding on mounting tabs to the TC to absolutely rule out any issues from the standoffs that space the converter to the flexplate.

I am almost done with an extensive 6r80 tech article with about 35+ photos that addresses a lot of this. Write up is done, just need to send the pics to Jon.

The 6r can be sourced from a 2014 and up (best years) F150, 4x4, with a 5.0 in it.

6r TC needs correct spacing and the best way is to weld tabs on the F150 TC for proper spacing with the PA kit.

6r TC needs an extension welded on to the snout of the TC for proper fitment into the crank with the PA kit

6r should have something to fill the top of the adapter at the top of the block so you can't drop tools, nuts, bolts whatever into your flexplate and TC with the PA kit. Wouldn't be a good mix. The bottom of the flexpate & converter is open to the world w/o and easy way to cover it. I have been known to bury mine 40" deep in sand and I'm sure I polish my TC regularly when sand wheeling... Easy fix for the upper 5" long gap, but $500 for a poorly designed adapter???


The SpeedGems is much more basic and sounds great- I just haven't installed one yet.

-Proprietary starter is a drawback
-13# TC mounting plate/spacer plate is a drawback but put a blower on it and make up for the slight power loss.

Any of this help??

 

[hossbronco]

Why would a 2014 6R80 be better than a 2013? 2011 and 2012 had the solenoid problems, but as far as I'm aware 2013-2017 are fine.

 

[nvrstuk]

Upgraded pumps, updated lead frames, etc are released each year. I would have to find the list again but I know Ford has made upgrades to the 6r since 2013 to make it "bigger, better, stronger, faster"... well, maybe not quite lol but upgrades are done and why would you want a 2013 model unless you're going to rebuild it with 4 years of upgraded parts?

That's my reasoning. I tend to push mechanical "things" to their limits and I use my Bronco a lot. I probably put more miles on my Bronco in a couple weeks than many do in a year and so I want the sense of security knowing I have the best parts I can have in it so when I am literally 40 miles off the gravel road with my wife along the SanJuan River or any other remote spot that I will have less liklihood of having to walk out.

2013-17 are fine, but I wouldn't run a '13 because it's still too close to the "guaranteed to lock up your rear wheels at high speed" problems the 6r had. Heck, my '15 did it. Yeah, it left a lasting impression on me... I won't forget it.