Bad Rag Joint? Wandering

[JohnJohn]

I have spent allot of money trying to get my Bronco to drive better and have made improvements but it took a step back yesterday and started to wander again.

I have replaced and rebuilt everything except my steering shaft/rag joint and I have also not rebuilt my steering column.

A rag joint is $40 but how do you know if it or my lower shaft that connects to the rag joint is bad or bent?

My steering shaft u-joint has no visible play in it.

Yesterday I had my tires balanced using a Road Force balancing machine. I but the wheels back on then had my wife turn the bronco from lock to lock in the drive way to check for binding and clearance. She put a bit of pressure on the rag joint in doing this. I then took it out for a short ride and it drove worse.
I am wondering if the forced lock to lock may have made the rag joint fail more.

There is no visible play in the rag joint but can you tell by these pics if something is worn out or in need of replacement?

I have a 2 inch body lift and it does put a bit of a bend to the rag joint because of this. If I need a new joint I am leaning to buying a double joint after market shaft for $200+.

 

[Skiddy]

$40.00 for a rag joint I think i paid around 15 for mine in hot spings last year. My shaft ended up being bent and took out my rag joint, i replaced the shaft with flaming river. How much does the shaft move before the tires try to start to turn?

 

[JohnJohn]

I cant see any play at all from the steering wheel all the way to the tires.

Here is a list of things I have done:
Duff long arms
4 drgree c bushings
ball joint adjusters (maybe .5 positive camber both sides and alot of castor)
3/8 toe in
BC hemi TRO linkage
77 steering box rebuild by West Texas
Track bar riser
new ball joints, wheel berrings, ujoints, track bar bushings
Crack in frame welded and added a box brace from the Bronco Graveyard

I will see if my local parts store has a lower priced rag joint but the Graveyard wanted $40 for one.

 

[JohnJohn]

Just went by Advanced Auto Parts. They want $75 for a 77 Bronco rag joint. At that price I will just spent the extra and get the double D shaft.

I am going to have the wife turn the wheel from side to side again before I buy another part.

 

[kayakersteve]

JohnJohn - If you replace the column, please do a picture thread - Thats my next big project and love to learn from other people as they do these projects!

 

[Skiddy]

Just went by Advanced Auto Parts. They want $75 for a 77 Bronco rag joint. At that price I will just spent the extra and get the double D shaft.

I am going to have the wife turn the wheel from side to side again before I buy another part.

WTH that's nuts, one last thing you might check before you buy any thing else is maybe lower your tire pressure and see if that helps, it does make a lot of differance

 

[JohnJohn]

I am at 30 PSI with 35" MTZ's with 17" beadlocks. It drove like this with 33's as well. I had also changed tire pressure alot with my 33's and it did not change much.

Replacing the column is an easy task. Rebuilding it is a bit more involved. I think my column is fine. Its the lower shaft that is left untouched.

I may get a fellow Bronco friend who is a master mechanic to swing by and look it over with me. A fresh pair of eyes always helps.

 

[lars]

Have the front end alignment checked by a shop. Make sure you get the data sheet, you want to know what the caster is at. Don't assume because you added 4 degree C bushings and ball joint adjusters that you have enough. Stock, my Bronco had 1.5 degrees of positive caster on one side and just over 1 degree on the other. Lifted, that made the numbers go negative. Dana wasn't super careful back in the day when they built the housings for these trucks.

I've since cut the inner C's off mine, rotated them back and welded them up, like others here have done. Result: almost 6 degrees of caster (4.5" lift, not that it matters) using 2 degree C bushings. Before I did that mod I had just under 3 degrees using 7 degree C bushings and ball joint adjusters. The difference was amazing. From keeping two hands on the wheel at all times to driving with one thumb hooked over the wheel. Seriously. Biggest improvement in steering stability I've done on my Bronco. Of course everything else (ball joints, tie rod ends, track bar bushings, etc) is in good shape.

Just something to think about. The mod sounds intimidating and it's a lot of work (grinding, mostly) but it's not that hard.

 

[JohnJohn]

I got my alignment specs then put long arms on. I need another alignment but I think I have another problem causing the wandering.

I had 3.3 positive castor before the Long Arm install. I have so much castor now after the long arms that my drive shaft almost binds with the front pinion.

 

[broncnaz]

I replaced my old rag joint with a poly urethane one from one of the mustang parts houses. Should be able to get one for less than $30 mines been on for several years holding up fine. Also most parts stores sell just the Rubber piece for fairly cheap should be in the motor mite/doorman section.
But yours doesnt appear to be bad if it was tearing or all cracked then I'd be worried.

All in all the rag joint will only result in some steering wheel play it really has no bearing on how your bronco drives. If your handling is bad then its most likely due to something else.

 

[Jeff10]

Lars... Thanks

Hi Lars,

Have the front end alignment checked by a shop. Make sure you get the data sheet, you want to know what the caster is at. Don't assume because you added 4 degree C bushings and ball joint adjusters that you have enough. Stock, my Bronco had 1.5 degrees of positive caster on one side and just over 1 degree on the other. Lifted, that made the numbers go negative. Dana wasn't super careful back in the day when they built the housings for these trucks.

I've since cut the inner C's off mine, rotated them back and welded them up, like others here have done. Result: almost 6 degrees of caster (4.5" lift, not that it matters) using 2 degree C bushings. Before I did that mod I had just under 3 degrees using 7 degree C bushings and ball joint adjusters. The difference was amazing. From keeping two hands on the wheel at all times to driving with one thumb hooked over the wheel. Seriously. Biggest improvement in steering stability I've done on my Bronco. Of course everything else (ball joints, tie rod ends, track bar bushings, etc) is in good shape.

Just something to think about. The mod sounds intimidating and it's a lot of work (grinding, mostly) but it's not that hard.

I am having an alignment done tomorrow because of bad handling.

I'll do a good job searching the forum for information regarding cutting off the inner Cs and rewelding. If I have trouble finding enough information, would you mind if I sent you a PM? (Any particular threads you remember being better than others? And, how did you find a shop to weld them back up at the right orientation?)

Thanks

Jeff

 

[Jeff10]

Hi JohnJohn,

I thought the rag joint in my Bronco was the reason for the terrible steering.

Here's a link to a thread with some pictures of the rag joint that was in the Bronco.

I expected the Bronco to drive like it was on rails after replacing the rag joint set up with a Borgeson double u-joint shaft. I was wrong. I don't know that the Bronco drove any different.

I'm going to get an alignment tomorrow just to know what the caster, camber and toe are running right now. (Mine is so bad that I am trailering it to Goodyear.)

Good luck with yours.

Jeff

 

[JohnJohn]

Jeff,
I have read your posts and know how hard it is to get it to drive safe. I just adjusted my toe to 1/4 toe in and got my right and left camber equal (i have a digital camber gauge) and it is a bit better but still loose. I had my wife turn the wheel from side to side while i looked at everything and the only thing i could see was that my freshly rebuilt box was alowing her to turn a bit befor the pitman arm would move. I think the box is still loose and will call west texas in the morning.
I took it for a fast drive down a country road and it is fone on turns but loose when i make small adjustments to stay in my lane on a road with no sholder.

 

[lars]

Hi Lars,



I am having an alignment done tomorrow because of bad handling.

I'll do a good job searching the forum for information regarding cutting off the inner Cs and rewelding. If I have trouble finding enough information, would you mind if I sent you a PM? (Any particular threads you remember being better than others? And, how did you find a shop to weld them back up at the right orientation?)

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff, I did everything myself with a friend's help, including the welding. Though if I were doing it again I would do it solo. I made a couple of fixtures to help me get the inner C's at the same angle, using suggestions from a friend of mine. Basically what you wind up with if you go back to stock C bushings and rotate the knuckles is what Ford would have done if they were selling Broncos lifted from the factory (don't we wish). Go ahead and ping me if you want.

 

[lars]

Jeff,
I have read your posts and know how hard it is to get it to drive safe. I just adjusted my toe to 1/4 toe in and got my right and left camber equal (i have a digital camber gauge) and it is a bit better but still loose. I had my wife turn the wheel from side to side while i looked at everything and the only thing i could see was that my freshly rebuilt box was alowing her to turn a bit befor the pitman arm would move. I think the box is still loose and will call west texas in the morning.
I took it for a fast drive down a country road and it is fone on turns but loose when i make small adjustments to stay in my lane on a road with no sholder.

To get your steering box right, remove the steering shaft from rag joint to u-joint, then either press off the pitman arm or pop the tie rod end loose from it. Then set the steering box to factory specs. You'll need an inch pound torque wrench that reads down to single digit numbers to do it, and find a 12 point socket that will grab the input splines on the steering box. Crank the steering box to full lock, then back off 45 degrees. Use the torque wrench on the input shaft to measure the torque necessary to turn the input shaft. Now rotate the input shaft to centered and measure the torque again. Per Ford specs, it should be about 12-15 inch pounds more than the previous measurement. If it's less, crank the adjuster on the steering box in (clockwise). If it's more than that (unlikely) crank it out.

 

[Desert Dweller]

by the way--- rag joints are not supposed to be used as flex joints. They are designed to be installed in a straight line as vibration dampeners. Making them flex as you is asking for early disintregation and trouble.

 

[JohnJohn]

Guys,
One other item I also noticed when my wife was turning the wheels from left to right is my track bar where it connects to the frame was moving about 1/8th of an inch in and out.
This is a new bushing and this is a 77 track bar so the top bushing is a wide oval bushing. My bolt is tight and the track bar frame hole is a tight fit to the bolt. I figured the slight movement was expected while turning from side to side while not moving. I mean it is a rubber bushing.

Is this movement acceptable?

My only other option is to go hemi on both ends of the track bar to end any chance of play but an 1/8" plan on a rubber bushing under heavy load should be reasonable.

I am also waiting for West Texas Off Raod to call me back.

 

[Jeff10]

Hi JohnJohn,

I had started a thread after the weekend, and I went ahead and posted the results of today's alignment visit to Goodyear on that thread. The link to the thread is:

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186534

I hope you don't mind me referencing it here... I figured it was probably better than repeating myself.

In short, I will be very pleased if the only problem is a bad steering gear. (Or, even better, an out of adjustment one currently in the Bronco.)

Regarding the track bar... what little I know is that you don't want any movement with the trackbar. My understanding is that even the little slop caused by a track bar bolt not being tightened to spec will cause handling problems. I'm not really familiar with the rubber bushing set-up, though.

Good luck as you chase your issues.

Jeff

 

[lars]

Guys,
One other item I also noticed when my wife was turning the wheels from left to right is my track bar where it connects to the frame was moving about 1/8th of an inch in and out.
This is a new bushing and this is a 77 track bar so the top bushing is a wide oval bushing. My bolt is tight and the track bar frame hole is a tight fit to the bolt. I figured the slight movement was expected while turning from side to side while not moving. I mean it is a rubber bushing.

Is this movement acceptable?

My only other option is to go hemi on both ends of the track bar to end any chance of play but an 1/8" plan on a rubber bushing under heavy load should be reasonable.

I am also waiting for West Texas Off Raod to call me back.

There used to be a vendor that made a Bronco track bar with heims. I had one. I still have one with heims but I moved the axle end outboard of the radius arm so now I'm running a straight bar. Can't remember the name of the vendor that made the one I had. In any case, I noticed an improvement in steering feel.

 

[JohnJohn]

Thanks Lars.
I did find the double hemi track bar and may pick it up next week. For the cost it is worth trying.
Just dont want to replace my box $$$$$$

Link to double hemi track bar:
http://www.stonecrushersteering.com/OTHER_PRODUCTS.html