Diagnosis nightmare!

[lilthom]

Literally months of frustration on this one. Here goes: New motor runs great. New Explorer serpentine kit looks and works great. No leaks anywhere, that's great. The issues are twofold. The power steering pump that came with the serpentine package has been replaced twice and I still don't really have what feels like power steering and all I have in the way of brakes is a pedal that goes to the floor and stays. Now, to minimize a ton of questions on what I have done or not done let me summarize. I have replace the Astro booster twice. I have replaced the 79 Camaro MC twice. As I mentioned I am on the third pump. I have checked an rechecked all of the plumbing diagram 40 times at least. Vacuum bled the brakes several times. I completely disassembled all lines and blew them out. I have cycled the steering untold number of times both with and without the engine running. I do have ram assist so throw that in the mix. I have made serious offers to cover gas, meals and offer lodging to anyone who can figure this one out. Oh yeah, your favorite beer as well. Anyone?

 

[Viperwolf1]

What kind of hosing and fittings are you using to connect everything? In my experience there is only 1 fitting that works well at the pump, the old Tom Lee fitting.

The explorer PS pump was designed for use with a rack and pinion steering system (low pressure, low volume). It works well with a steering box alone and is marginal with a steering box and hydroboost. It probably won't work with an additional ram added. You really need a high pressure, high volume pump.

Your brake issue may be something different. With the hydro, even without the engine running, you have adequate brakes. The pedal should not go all the way to the floor.

 

[SteveL]

Where are the parts coming from? I've had plenty of problems with the lifetime warranty crap from the cheap a stores. When it comes to any of the parts in your swap I spend the extra coin for stuff from napa. With that said even they are starting to carry the cheap crap to complete. You gotta ask for the better or American made stuff if they have it. It sounds like you have more going on and possibly it's the exploder pump like stated above. Just putting it out there that it's not a surprise to get a faulty or weak pump, Mc or whatever from the cheaper places

 

[00gyrhed]

Yes your pedal going to the floor has nothing to do with power steering pump. The hydropower is an assist, the MC is direct to the pedal. HB just.Makes it easier. Get the brakes working before you do anything else o the hydrAulic system.

Start with the linkage to the MC.

The best set up is to make sure the pedal actually cant make it to the floor, with no pressie in the brake system. That way you can always use the entire travel of the MC. Mine stops 1/4" above.the floor, it should stop above any floor.covering as well. Best to set it up beforeyou even put fluid in it while you are fabbing. Then bench bleed it when you have everythingthing linked up. There should be no more than 0.02" play at the rod between the HB and the MC. But there has to be some end play. BasicAlly 1/32" to 1/16".

Pedal should have about 3/4" 0f slop at the top too. Some set ups there isn't a.lot of play between the two. Mine is pretty much no way to have it set up a y different. Any more play at the top and the pedal hits the floor.

Don't even bother with anything else until the set up is right. The bleed the brakes. Rig or guy a pressure bleeder. Mine is just a flat piece of 1/2" steel with an air hose connection. Use an inner tube for a gasket and a c clamp to tie it down. 20 psi on the regulator. Works great. You just have to open the bleeder, just be careful not to leave it open too long. Once that is all done if you don't have brakes it's a leak or a mechanical.pro b elm in the brake system.

Sorry but the spell check stinks on this device.

 

[lilthom]

details to comments

Yes your pedal going to the floor has nothing to do with power steering pump. The hydropower is an assist, the MC is direct to the pedal. HB just.Makes it easier. Get the brakes working before you do anything else o the hydrAulic system.

The brakes feel good without the engine running.

Start with the linkage to the MC.
The best set up is to make sure the pedal actually cant make it to the floor, with no pressie in the brake system. That way you can always use the entire travel of the MC. Mine stops 1/4" above.the floor, it should stop above any floor.covering as well. Best to set it up beforeyou even put fluid in it while you are fabbing. Then bench bleed it when you have everythingthing linked up. There should be no more than 0.02" play at the rod between the HB and the MC. But there has to be some end play. BasicAlly 1/32" to 1/16".

Pedal should have about 3/4" 0f slop at the top too. Some set ups there isn't a.lot of play between the two. Mine is pretty much no way to have it set up a y different. Any more play at the top and the pedal hits the floor.

The pedal travel is as you described. Bench bled the MC. I gave credit to all of the others who used this booster/MC combination that they mated well.

Don't even bother with anything else until the set up is right. The bleed the brakes. Rig or guy a pressure bleeder. Mine is just a flat piece of 1/2" steel with an air hose connection. Use an inner tube for a gasket and a c clamp to tie it down. 20 psi on the regulator. Works great. You just have to open the bleeder, just be careful not to leave it open too long. Once that is all done if you don't have brakes it's a leak or a mechanical.pro b elm in the brake system.

I am using a good Mytvac bleeder.

Sorry but the spell check stinks on this device.

What kind of hosing and fittings are you using to connect everything? In my experience there is only 1 fitting that works well at the pump, the old Tom Lee fitting.

It still has the factory fitting at the pump.

The explorer PS pump was designed for use with a rack and pinion steering system (low pressure, low volume). It works well with a steering box alone and is marginal with a steering box and hydroboost. It probably won't work with an additional ram added. You really need a high pressure, high volume pump.

Many have stated that this pump does well with the bigger tires, etc. With the booster bypassed and just connected to the steering box it feel like nothing.

Your brake issue may be something different. With the hydro, even without the engine running, you have adequate brakes. The pedal should not go all the way to the floor.

Please don't stop brainstorming.

 

[lilthom]

Where are the parts coming from? I've had plenty of problems with the lifetime warranty crap from the cheap a stores. When it comes to any of the parts in your swap I spend the extra coin for stuff from napa. With that said even they are starting to carry the cheap crap to complete. You gotta ask for the better or American made stuff if they have it. It sounds like you have more going on and possibly it's the exploder pump like stated above. Just putting it out there that it's not a surprise to get a faulty or weak pump, Mc or whatever from the cheaper places

I have had the same experiences. These have been from Bumper to Bumper and O'Reilleys but I can't imagine getting 2 and 3 in a row that are bad.

 

[pcf_mark]

As everyone said start with the brakes because they should work fine with or without boost. It sounds like you never bench bled the master or it ran dry while bleeding. Are the calipers installed on the correct side of the truck with the bleeders facing up?

The new M/C usually comes with some plugs to bench bleed it. You should be able to get a pretty solid pedal using just that because the fluid has no where else to go. If this is not true then the M/C is bypassing and is junk. But if you do this then the problem is further down the system. Bleed the brakes and once air free see if they can hold the rotor. If not pull the caliper off and see if it is leaking on the inside by the piston it will be obvious.

I have an Explorer serp, stock power steering and astro booster and love it. HOWEVER it took a ton of time to get the air out power steering/hydro system. The biggest mistake I made was filling up the reservoir then starting it up. This caused the air in the hoses and rest of the system to be blown into tiny little bubbles. It takes days of sitting for these to reform into something you can bleed. The method that worked for me was let it sit for 3 or 4 days. Top off the power steering reservoir (with actual power steering fluid) and jack up the front end. I moved the wheels back and forth by hand using the tires about 20 times. Then I pressed the brakes about 5 times. Repeat this 2 or 3 times making sure the reservoir stays full. Then start it up with wheels still off the ground and repeat 2-3 more times constantly checking the level in the reservoir. Then put it on the ground and try it out should be good.

 

[twisted 66]

Not sure if all M/C are the same but I had a extension piece that came with mine. This part goes inside of the M/C kinda looks like a bullet. With out it the piston would not engage with the rod fully.

 

[lilthom]

As everyone said start with the brakes because they should work fine with or without boost. It sounds like you never bench bled the master or it ran dry while bleeding. Are the calipers installed on the correct side of the truck with the bleeders facing up?

I bench bled the master and I actually do have brakes that feel good with the engine off. New calipers installed correctly and working(with engine off)
The new M/C usually comes with some plugs to bench bleed it. You should be able to get a pretty solid pedal using just that because the fluid has no where else to go. If this is not true then the M/C is bypassing and is junk. But if you do this then the problem is further down the system. Bleed the brakes and once air free see if they can hold the rotor. If not pull the caliper off and see if it is leaking on the inside by the piston it will be obvious.

I have an Explorer serp, stock power steering and astro booster and love it. HOWEVER it took a ton of time to get the air out power steering/hydro system. The biggest mistake I made was filling up the reservoir then starting it up. This caused the air in the hoses and rest of the system to be blown into tiny little bubbles. It takes days of sitting for these to reform into something you can bleed. The method that worked for me was let it sit for 3 or 4 days. Top off the power steering reservoir (with actual power steering fluid) and jack up the front end. I moved the wheels back and forth by hand using the tires about 20 times. Then I pressed the brakes about 5 times. Repeat this 2 or 3 times making sure the reservoir stays full. Then start it up with wheels still off the ground and repeat 2-3 more times constantly checking the level in the reservoir. Then put it on the ground and try it out should be good.

That is pretty much what I have done in some manner or other over the last couple of months. I am always game at this point to repeat as if it's the first time.

 

[lilthom]

Let's see if this helps at all. I just did the stop to stop routine again assuming there was still air in the system. No good. Using my hand depressing the brake with the engine running I can see the fluid in the reservoir moving up and down and I can see the pressure hose going into the booster move. I can hear/feel gurgling as I depress it and as I pull it back up off the floor. This used to be a trail rig which is why I added the ram assist. It will be almost exclusively pavement now so maybe I should just eliminate the ram?

 

[lilthom]

I'm going to keep painting this picture in hopes that a light bulb comes on somewhere in Bronco land. I just did something I hadn't done yet which was steer stop to stop with engine running at high idle while pumping the brakes. Now I am back to where I was a couple of weeks ago with some braking but the pedal won't come back up all the way. this also gave me some super fine bubbling in the reservoir. I think I will let it set a couple of hours and repeat.

 

[pcf_mark]

Engine off where is your pedal? Does it drop a few inches then get rock solid? If it drops to the floor your have a brake problem not a booster problem. Stay on that first.

Your ram assist sounds like it has air in it. Someone will chime in with tips on bleeding but the cycling with engine off is best. The punp takes the air bubbles and blows them into tiny bubbles that can stay in suspension.

thread from another forum (not as cool as us but same issue)
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?123906-Need-help-bleeding-hydro-assist

 

[lilthom]

Engine off where is your pedal? Does it drop a few inches then get rock solid? If it drops to the floor your have a brake problem not a booster problem. Stay on that first.

Brake pedal is good with engine off. I have just the slightest of free pedal before it engages and it stops just before the carpet feeling firm all the way down.

Your ram assist sounds like it has air in it. Someone will chime in with tips on bleeding but the cycling with engine off is best. The punp takes the air bubbles and blows them into tiny bubbles that can stay in suspension.

thread from another forum (not as cool as us but same issue)
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?123906-Need-help-bleeding-hydro-assist

I actually had the rod end of the ram disconnected at one time in an attempt to isolate my problem. It didn't move at all when I turned but in reading several posts it sounded like it wouldn't unless there was actually resistance in my turning to trigger the "assist". I suppose I can mess with that again or disconnect it completely at the hoses to see what it all feels like. Thanks for thinking out loud with me.

 

[lilthom]

I'm done!

I guess I am going back to vacuum brakes. If I can't get good brakes on this I believe I may just drive my car to OCBR. Yes, I am whining.

 

[AZ69EB]

Not sure if this helps, but I used the MC off the Astro van and added the S10 resivoir from a 94. It is larger and helps th keep it from running dry when bleeding the brakes. I also had tinny bubble in MC. I had to tap the MC with a plastic mallet a thousand times until all bubbles disappeared while bleeding it. But, I did use the Lee MFG adapter for the PS pump. I was able to get steering before brakes. I had a few people check and verify that I wasn't crazy as this was driving me nuts. Don't give up. You'll get it working.

 

[DirtDonk]

Have you ever verified the clearance between the booster's rod and the backside of the master cylinder piston? If you did, I didn't see where you mention it.

Sort of on the same theme, have you ever pushed the pedal all the way without to the floor without the master cylinder attached?
With some (all?) hydro-boost systems doing this will ruin the booster and it has to be "reset" or rebuilt or something. Many a booster has been blown by doing this.

Remember, with at least a 6:1 pedal ratio, if you have a 3/4" gap between the booster and the master you will have almost 5" of pedal travel before the booster even contacts the master to even begin to take up the normal slack in the system.
Just wondering if this could be part of the issue.

And with both a hydroboost and ram, are you running a larger reservoir too? Seems like that would be a good idea anyway. I'm actually a fan of the stock Explorer reservoir (even though it's plastic) because it's a nice little design. But it's small, and it seems like holding more fluid for both the capacity and it's subsequent extra cooling as well would be good things.

That's not going to necessarily stop the pedal from flooring, as has already been said. That's only one of three things. Either air in the brake fluid system, too much mechanical play in the brake system, or one or more defective components in control of the brake fluid system.
And speaking of which... Just which brakes are you running?

I would definitely verify that the master is compatible with the booster rod if you haven't already.
Sorry if I missed where you had.

Paul

 

[fablife]

sounds like a rod adjustment to me too.. try this also
http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2718844#post2718844
never tried it with hydro boost tho.
also, the smaller pulley #300-11 definitely helps! but it needs to be mod'd to fit (bolt holes elongated about 1/16" and the hub center made larger hth, JD

 

[lilthom]

Thanks, guys. Dirtdonk, I don't recall applying the brakes without the MC connected but I wouldn't swear to it. This is the third booster unit and I can't see me doing that on all of them. As far as the mechanics of it all I always assumed that when I went with all of the components that others had found worked I would be okay. It is the 96 Astro booster mated to a 79 Camaro MC. The oddest part to me is that the brakes I have without the engine running disappear when I turn it on. I am corresponding with Steve Sharp and am hoping he can identify something. Otherwise I will be ordering a firewall bracket for my vacuum booster.

 

[rjrobin2002]

I run the astro boost with the astrology MC and the Astrology proportioning valve with great results every time. I always use the Lee adapter and have never had to bleed the system, just instantly works.