mini starter install questions

[DavidDFW]

Hi - I have been having trouble with hard starts (and no starts) after the engine reaches operating temperature. Wait long enough and it will start. I have been reading on the boards and come to the conclusion that it might be due to the starter getting too hot and not having the opportunity to cool down so I thought it would make sense to install a higher powered mini starter - think i bought it from Toms. I also took the opportunity to replace the fender mounted solenoid and the post cables as well as the cable from the solenoid to the starter.

i had unhooked the negative cable from its post. However I did not move it far enough out of the way, and during the process, the cable made contact with the negative post - and I got a few seconds of connection that seemed pretty significant. i continued the install and believe i got everything hooked up right but am a novice so maybe didnt.

Anyway - when i had everything reconnected, I turned the key and got nothing... zip... zilch. Im hopeful that I only connected something incorrectly, but am worried that the negative connection i made had a big impact. I have tested the reading at the battery post and the fender solenoid and am getting 12.6 at both. I have also checked the 5 fuses in the glove box and none seem damaged.

I signed up as a contributor and will post a few pictures of the solenoid as it is currently wired as soon as my status is updated - hopefully my issue is as simple as the fact i cant follow directions. In the interim, can you guys give me some ideas on how to check if my negative connection had a more sinister impact on things?

 

[bronconut73]

BC has a good tech article on their site on how to wire up these pmgr starters.

 

[DavidDFW]

photos

ok here is a photo of the current solenoid wiring - please let me know if any other pictures might be helpful

 

[DavidDFW]

thanks bronconut - i did read the bc install article before i installed - i also think i understood the diagram steve83 had on his site. i guess im more afraid that the contact i had during the installation has done something unrelated to the starter at this point... when i say i get nothing when i turn the key, i mean i dont get a radio, lights or anything.

 

[Amac70]

you have it wired wrong just can't tell you what. power for starter should be coming off other side of solinoid should only have like a 14 gauge wire coming off solinoid back side going to starter. looks like you have it wired like a standard starter not a mini starter.

okay on further review im looking at it backwards it looks like you need to move the pink wire to the other side for power source for everything inside. anyway all the power should be on one side and only one wire on the other switching and sending signal to starter if you understand what im saying.

 

[matt w]

Hi - I have been having trouble with hard starts (and no starts) after the engine reaches operating temperature. Wait long enough and it will start. I have been reading on the boards and come to the conclusion that it might be due to the starter getting too hot and not having the opportunity to cool down so I thought it would make sense to install a higher powered mini starter - think i bought it from Toms. I also took the opportunity to replace the fender mounted solenoid and the post cables as well as the cable from the solenoid to the starter.

i had unhooked the negative cable from its post. However I did not move it far enough out of the way, and during the process, the cable made contact with the negative post - and I got a few seconds of connection that seemed pretty significant. i continued the install and believe i got everything hooked up right but am a novice so maybe didnt.

Anyway - when i had everything reconnected, I turned the key and got nothing... zip... zilch. Im hopeful that I only connected something incorrectly, but am worried that the negative connection i made had a big impact. I have tested the reading at the battery post and the fender solenoid and am getting 12.6 at both. I have also checked the 5 fuses in the glove box and none seem damaged.

I signed up as a contributor and will post a few pictures of the solenoid as it is currently wired as soon as my status is updated - hopefully my issue is as simple as the fact i cant follow directions. In the interim, can you guys give me some ideas on how to check if my negative connection had a more sinister impact on things?

Although I really really like Tom's as well as the staff, my mini starter quit after less than 2 years. I went back to the stock style starter.
I have no clue how to advise you on the fix.... Good luck!

 

[DavidDFW]

you have it wired wrong just can't tell you what. power for starter should be coming off other side of solinoid should only have like a 14 gauge wire coming off solinoid back side going to starter. looks like you have it wired like a standard starter not a mini starter.

okay on further review im looking at it backwards it looks like you need to move the pink wire to the other side for power source for everything inside. anyway all the power should be on one side and only one wire on the other switching and sending signal to starter if you understand what im saying.

that makes sense - so only the 12g wire that i have coming from the starter on one side and everything else on the other - where i currently have the positive post and the 4g wire from the starter. Ill try that again, but unfortunately I already tried that as all the directions i looked at didnt really mention what to do with them.

 

[DavidDFW]

ok crisis averted - when i moved the other wires to the positive side, everything worked. Thanks for the quick help.

One other question - I cant find an engine to frame ground anywhere - i dont really know where i should be looking... the two spots ive read about are where the battery to engine ground is and maybe the upper manifold to the firewall. Ive taken a picture where I think a ground might go on the firewall - is that what that bracket is for? And if so, would I use the bolt at the manifold?

 

[Amac70]

yeah the switched side of solenoid should only have one small wire going to starter everything else should be on the other side.

 

[Amac70]

you can put grounds pretty much anywhere, i have a ground strap to a bolt in back of the head and the other end is a through bolt through the firewall so i can hook grounds to both sides of it. good ground spot on the inside of the bronco. block is grounded to frame also, under the alt somewhere to the frame.

 

[DirtDonk]

From the factory your Bronco would not have had an engine-to-frame, OR an engine-to-body ground strap/wire/cable. The only main battery grounds were utilized with the single main negative cable.
The big end went to the engine of course, but along it's length there was an area bare of insulation that had a strap/clamp bolted to the inner wheel well adjacent to the number one cylinder exhaust.

If you look, there's probably a nice hole for a sheet-metal screw right about that point, just around the corner from your starter relay/solenoid.
Add your own grounds to your heart's content. Your Bronco will thank you for it!

Paul

 

[00gyrhed]

wire it like a chevy starter. take the start wire off the solenoid and tie it direct to the starter. take a cable direct from the battery. throw the solenoid away. or use it only as a junction. no reason whatsoever to use the old solenoid.

 

[DirtDonk]

...wire it like a chevy starter. take the start wire off the solenoid and tie it direct to the starter. take a cable direct from the battery. throw the solenoid away. or use it only as a junction. no reason whatsoever to use the old solenoid.

Unfortunately, that's completely incorrect for EB's, as we've found about 90% of the time people wire it like that. You are correct that it theoretically should work, but it doesn't always. Instead you get momentary run-on of the starter as the motor becomes a generator and feeds just enough power back through the system to keep the solenoid engaged anywhere from 1 to about 5 seconds. Pretty disconcerting for the first-timer for sure!

So yes, leave the old Ford starter relay intact and wired into the system.
Even Ford did this initially, as you can find when you scour the junkyards and notice that long after the PMGR starters took over, the old Ford relays were still used. Only much later did they finally disappear. Not sure if all of them are gone, or there are still some vehicles using them, but you don't typically see them on late model mod motor equipped cars. But they were used on Explorers at least up to '99 or '00 from what I've seen.

A secondary benefit of this is to the stock ignition switch. It's weak enough already, but the true solenoids on the starters use more current than the fender mounted relay does. Pulls more current through the ignition switch and probably shortens it's life.
Do I know this for fact? Nope. Just an "assumption" on my part, but it makes sense and these stock switches are common failure points nowadays, and the solenoid definitely uses more power than the old relay. So I think it makes sense to keep the load as small as possible.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

ok here is a photo of the current solenoid wiring...

Hey David. I know you already have it fixed and it's up and running again, but I thought I'd point out a couple of things that might leave you scratching your head as you see more Broncos. And it might be what got your wiring confused in the first place.
Whether you did it, or the PO did it, your starter relay/solenoid is actually upside down compared to how Ford installed them at the factory on Broncos. I've seen them this way on some cars, but many others have it reversed from what you have.
That's not a problem though, and the part functions perfectly fine as long as you get the Red w/blue wire and Brown wire on their correct small posts (Which they are in your picture) and all the power wires and cables paired up on their appropriate sides.

As you found out, the reason you had no power anywhere was that the main battery positive cable was on one side post with the starter cable, but your main connection to the cab was on the opposite side, isolating power from the entire truck. No power to the key, no way to charge the battery, etc.
The most common wiring scheme is all those wires on the left side big post with the battery and starter cables, and only the Red wire down to the starter solenoid is on the right.

That's all just FYI though. The way you have it now that it's working is perfectly fine as long as all the wires that are supposed to share a post do, and the systems work. The relay itself doesn't care whether it's pointed up or down or sideways.

Sorry to muddy up the finally-clearing waters after the fact, but I thought you'd like to know so when you stare into another engine compartment that doesn't quite look like yours, you'll be able to see the difference right away.

Paul