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My take on the best transmission, new twist on old favorite

Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
47
I'm building two different broncos right now one is going to be an auto, one a manual. I know this have been talked about quite a bit but things change over time. For example 20 years ago broncos were sought after because they made great off roaders. In that case the NV435 was probably the best for a lot of people. Super low first gear and your tires were big enough you never needed an overdrive. Now there's not that many people taking broncos off road. These are valuable classic cars and most people don't want to risk it. Especially when you can buy an older jeep for about 1/10th the price. I'm posting here because I'm definitely open to having my mind changed. Here's what I'm thinking for my builds:


Automatic of my choice: AOD. At first I wanted the 4r70w. But I don't like dealing with computers. I like working on classics so I don't have to deal with that. 4r70w takes a standalone controller. I realize the AOD doesn't have the best reputation but the $1000 you save not buying a stand alone computer can go a long ways to building a stout AOD.

Manual of choice: At first I was all about the T19. Low syncro first gear, about the same length and who needs overdrive? But it's heavy and slow shifting. Then I wanted a ZF5 to get a 5th gear. But they are expensive to find and still shift pretty slow. The AX15 is popular but I don't love an adapter on both sides of it and much faster and smoother shifting but still not the king. I just picked up an M2OD-R2 appears to be in good shape for $100. It doesn't have the best reputation with the F150 crowd. But that's also in a truck that weighs 2000 lbs more that people are hauling loads and hauling trailers with and still holding up 200,000 miles. The rubber plugs is the biggest problem fix that it should be pretty reliable in a bronco. First gear is perfect at about 4 to 1. Bolts up on the front, and either adapts to a T20 or retrofit an NP205. I would argue it's one of the smoothest shifting manual ever put into a truck. People always want more power from their engine. But what good does engine power do if you shift through gears slow? If a truck with a zf5 and 200 hp engine drag raced a M5OD with 150hp, all other things being equal, my money would be on the M5OD truck winning! Because of these reasons for my choice.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,695
I would probably pick a C4 before doing an AOD. The gear spacing is just so poor. Need really low axle gears to make it work. They can be built to take lots of power, but if that isn't your game and you are just driving it around, what really kills it is hunting in and out overdrive. While not at high RPM, the shifts happen at very low manifold vacuum and thus max engine torque. Those clutch packs take a beating making a fairly smooth shift in and out of overdrive. The only fix is really low axle gearing.

The M5R2 is really good as long as you keep oil in it. The factory rubber plugs are the downfall. I remember looking inside one opened up next to a T5. The T5 looked like a toy. Not that a T5 was a great transmission, but they still took a lot of power back in the late 80s and live fairly well given the abuse they were generally subject to. The M5R2 has much beefier gear set. Ford used it on the supercharged 3.8 because the torque couldn't keep a T5 together.
 

fordguy

Contributor
Bronco Guru
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Jan 23, 2005
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4r70w controller is less than a grand and you have a great trans with a lot of flexibility, no way I would fool with an AOD. C4 is also a proven trans.
 
OP
OP
E
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
47
4r70w controller is less than a grand and you have a great trans with a lot of flexibility, no way I would fool with an AOD. C4 is also a proven trans.
Still that thousand bucks you can buy a core AOD and get halfway to a "bulletproof" rebuild designed to handle 400 hp. Best part is no computer!
 

nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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4r70 w with a manual valve body. No electronic controller, SUPER reliable, excellent trans with great gear splits
 

nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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9,419
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Are you not ever going to drive it on the street? OD is fantastic both on the road and off. I'd go from first gear in my ZF to OD quite often in low range as you negotiate around something and then ramble on over at 8mph to the next nasty spot.
ZF and NV4500 are almost the same. A guy here on CB has a NV4500/Atlas combo for sale
 

SteveL

Huge chevy guy
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Jun 24, 2001
Messages
11,814
Loc.
Hawthorne ca
4R70W gears in an AOD. solenoid lock out for OD is the only electrical connection.
adjust TV cable correctly and be golden.
Or just bang gears on an NP435
I like this option. I'm happy with my 351w with a qjet on top. I currently have a 4spd but my aging spine is leaning to an auto swap. I have a c-4 set up in the garage but would love the od gears.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
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Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,695
Why so opposed to a computer to run the transmission? They are so simple. There are 3 sensors, and only 2 really matter. The temp is there to hold off on locking up the convertor until the fluid is reasonably warm. Then there is throttle postion and speed sensor.

Mechanical computers suck. And that is what a valve body is. A not very tunable hydraulic computer. You can unplug the computer, lose all electrical, and it still moves. A couple of switches and you can have all your gears without a computer as well.
 
OP
OP
E
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
47
Why so opposed to a computer to run the transmission? They are so simple. There are 3 sensors, and only 2 really matter. The temp is there to hold off on locking up the convertor until the fluid is reasonably warm. Then there is throttle postion and speed sensor.

Mechanical computers suck. And that is what a valve body is. A not very tunable hydraulic computer. You can unplug the computer, lose all electrical, and it still moves. A couple of switches and you can have all your gears without a computer as well.
I don't like chasing electric gremlins, programing, figuring out if grounds are loose, ect. By FAR the most amount of problems I've had with various cars I've own, classic or not, has been chasing down electronic issues. I own 7 vehicles, I currently own the newest vehicle I have ever owned: 1998 Dodge cummins 12 valve. Which is well known for being one of the last almost entirely mechanical vehicles built. I also have an 81 BJ42 landcruiser. I drove it for several weeks with no alternator (24 volt had to sent it off to get rebuilt). Just made sure to point it down the hill everytime I wanted to start it. The battery had enough charge to run the lights and besides that it didn't need one single electronic for anything........... If I wanted to deal with computers I'd just buy a new bronco. But I work on old cars because I would rather stay away from them. Complicated or not I just enjoy mechanically operated things.
 
OP
OP
E
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
47
Are you not ever going to drive it on the street? OD is fantastic both on the road and off. I'd go from first gear in my ZF to OD quite often in low range as you negotiate around something and then ramble on over at 8mph to the next nasty spot.
ZF and NV4500 are almost the same. A guy here on CB has a NV4500/Atlas combo for sale
Ever on the street? I'm actually kind of suprise anybody still drives broncos off road anymore. Not offense to them, to each their own. I really enjoy driving 4x4s off road and part of the reason broncos became so popular was their off roading abilities. I'm just afraid to take something off road with as much value as a bronco has. I know people make fun of "pavement princesses" but broncos have gone into a different category with their value. I don't want to risk that kind of money. Especially when you can buy an off CJ5 for about 90% less than a bronco. Or my personal preference: Samurai. Hard to beat the off road abilities of a sammi.
 

badandy73

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Broncoholic
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Jul 18, 2007
Messages
175
Why so opposed to a computer to run the transmission? They are so simple. There are 3 sensors, and only 2 really matter. The temp is there to hold off on locking up the convertor until the fluid is reasonably warm. Then there is throttle postion and speed sensor.

Mechanical computers suck. And that is what a valve body is. A not very tunable hydraulic computer. You can unplug the computer, lose all electrical, and it still moves. A couple of switches and you can have all your gears without a computer as well.

x2 on this, wiring is super simple with the quick 4 controller. Haven't touched mine since installing it and would take the butter smooth shifting over the harsh shifts of my old C4 any day. Controller plugs right into all the OEM sensors, which are running around in 10's of thousands of Ford rigs for decades now.
 

73azbronco

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Bronco Guru
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Nov 11, 2007
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2013, literally bare frame on engine hoist during rebuild to rock crawler, and the prices of EBs went from sub 6,000 to exceeding my 1 year old 2013 jeep value. I went to restomod mode, but kept the nv4500, which I wish I went 4r70. Still might. I can row gears with the best of them.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
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Jan 30, 2005
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I drove a W series 5 speed (close cousin to the AX15) for close to two decades. That trans thinks it should be in a Sports Car. The R series (what the AX15 is known as in other venues) IS used in the manual trans Supras. Different ratios, but the same basic trans.

I ran an AOD in my '67 Ranchero behind a carb'd 302. Back then no one anywhere knew anything about how to set up the TV cable. I had to reverse engineer an OEM install and then figure out how to make that happen with a carb. The OD in those is TALL. A less tall OD ratio would be welcome.

Was I wanting a non-computerized OD Auto trans in a Bronco I'd go with a 700R4. Has a nice OD ratio, and has a really great first gear ratio too!
 

EFI Guy

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Apr 14, 2013
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There are 2 kinds of AOD. Burnt up, and going to burn up.

My knees are getting too bad to operate a clutch while wheeling all day and the 4r70w makes up for all of the AOD's shortcomings despite being so closely related.
You don't have to purchase an expensive controller to run it. Consider the 4r70w control a free bonus to running the best EFI there is . =)
Or, just put a manual valve body in it...
 

nvrstuk

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Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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9,419
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Ever on the street? I'm actually kind of suprise anybody still drives broncos off road anymore. Not offense to them, to each their own. I really enjoy driving 4x4s off road and part of the reason broncos became so popular was their off roading abilities. I'm just afraid to take something off road with as much value as a bronco has. I know people make fun of "pavement princesses" but broncos have gone into a different category with their value. I don't want to risk that kind of money. Especially when you can buy an off CJ5 for about 90% less than a bronco. Or my personal preference: Samurai. Hard to beat the off road abilities of a sammi.
This is what I don't understand... how MANY Broncos get rear ended on a trail? How many get "T" boned in an intersection on a trail? How many get stolen on a trail? How many get in accidents with other cars like being sideswiped on a trail??? How many guys have a rear axle break on the highway and roll compared to wheeling and losing a rear axle and it just stops in 10 ft because you're doing 10mph? Yeah, you might get more pinstripes on the trail but you aren't going to have any of the daily examples like above occur on a trail run.

Besides, most everyone's pickup costs more than a $50-70K Bronco and everybody drives them off road here where I live.

COME ON guys, the odds of you having a huge insurance claim is much higher when driving it to town, mall crawling, car show, ANYtime you are on a road with other cars than if you're wandering about on a twin track road or going wheeling in the hills. This is why

Show me the # of claims on EB's on pavement compared to claims of Broncos not on pavement. I'll bet I put more miles on my Bronco in a month off road than about 30 typical mall crawler Broncos do in a year.-least the ones that I know that never drive them or let rain fall on them- and these aren't $100K +Broncos either.

Sorry for the rant and no offense intended but nobody looks at street vrs trail insurance data but the excuse that they are worth too much to drive doesn't make sense when comparing it to pavement miles and the other cars people own that are worth so much more than their Bronco.

Jeeps are cheaper but they are like driving any brand of white pickup, Sammi's tip over in a slight breeze off road and worse on the street trying to get to the trail. :)

Edit- let loose on this one didn't I? LOL
 
Last edited:

1969

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Feb 28, 2022
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I’m sure at some point years ago before the reproduction body panels and tubs it was “scary” to wheel it and your only option was attempting to find new used panels. But now it’s another story, just click add to cart.
 
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