Need serious Advice - Rebuilt for return?

[DebosDave'72]

Hello everyone,

I am looking for some advice on how deep down the rabbit hole to go, and how much to temper my expectations on every getting my money back on my project. Now I definitely understand the old adage "you rebuild for love, not for return" and I fully expect to get those types of responses. I would however also appreciate some thought and input to the "how far" "too much" "not enough" aspect of restoration as it pertains to financial return. Ok, here is my story and question:

I purchased a 1977 bronco in Montana roughly 2 years ago. According to the add, it has an NP435 transmission, lockers, and on and on. I drove around 2 hours to go "look" at this bronco, and brought my car hauler along "in case". I ended up purchasing the bronco without driving it for $12,000. My mistake without question, I was fueled by the increased demand along with the extreme lack of local supply. Fast forward, and what it appears I actually have: I was told it had a detroit in the back, however it is locked all the time, tight turns at any speed and you can feel it fighting. The transmission has the syncros completely gone, you need to float gears to shift, and throttle control to downshift. The clutch must work to some extent because it starts with the clutch like normal. Also, 1st gear isn't super low, infact you can't really start successfully in 2nd gear as it seems too high. Not sure what the transmission is. On to the body. The front gas tank appeared to have been bondo'd over and when I got it home I attempted to chisel the bondo from around the fuel door. To my surprise it wasn't bondo, but the opening was closed up with fiberglass. The floors have been "patched" and covered in a layer of fiberglass as well. Significant rust in typical places and more. The body seems "solid" but needs a lot of attention. 3" body lift, and what I am assuming is the original suspension. Windshield frame and door pillars aren't aligned perfectly, something must have been changed, but not perfectly...

I have had the bronco for sale off and on for the last 2 years, and have gone down to asking $9900. I turned down an offer for $9000 at the end of summer. My reasoning is that if I am going to lose that kind of money, I might as well keep it because it will be very difficult to find another when I am ready again in the future.

I just drove 2400 miles in 38 hours to pick up an AX-15 and adapter kit to install to make the bronco more driveable.

On the drive home, I am going back and forth questioning if I am going to do the work to put in a new transmission, what else do I do at the same time. And how far can I go before I really start to lose money on a resell if that ever becomes more of a necessity. Also, is there even a chance I can go only so deep and actually help myself recoup some of the money that I am already down??

So here is the question: In your opinion, do you feel like there is a way to repair this thing enough to gain back all past and future investment? What matters the most in resale? Should I repair and make nice the interior and body? Should I do more than replace the transmission on the drive train? A total frame off?

If I replace the transmission, and maybe lower the 3" body lift, put a 1" body and freshen the factory suspension, then put around $25,000 into the body and interior, is this thing going to bring $40,000 plus to recoup my money??

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this, and I really value the opinions of those of you out there with some experience. This question is most strictly for a financial perspective, however if I fix it up I will inevitably enjoy driving it around before I would sell it...

Let the discussion begin!

 

[crab]

I go by the old saying “if you have to ask, you can’t afford it”.
Seriously, we don’t know what the future holds. The market could fall out the day you complete the project after going $10k over your budget. If you can’t afford to gamble, don’t play the game. I see a lot of broncos hitting the market in a couple years offsetting the supply and demand back into “our” favor.
If you are trying to make a buck and have the ability to repair the sheet metal, that’s probably your safest bet. The parts are cheap and that’s usually the first thing buyers look at.
Post some pics so we know what we’re dealing with

 

[Apogee]

Take a lot of pictures...it sounds like you have a pretty typical (or maybe a little worse) $10k to $15k basket case EB. Clearly someone else thought it was worth $9k when you were trying to sell it to recoup your "investment", so that should give you a good idea of what someone else thinks it's worth. How knowledgeable they are is tough to say.

That said, there are a bunch of people on here who know these things inside and out and think about valuations and such all the time, but I'm not one of them. I bought my EB going on 16 years ago because I wanted one, and have no plans to sell it, so I don't worry about it. It was a bit of a basket case when I bought it, so I addressed the issues that impacted safety and drivability and then drove it pretty solid for the better part of 10 years without doing much else to her. I've recently tore her down and am working on some full-width axle swaps, 37's, Atlas, etc, but I can't wait to get her back on the road because I miss the joy of driving an EB...even if she is a bit rough around the edges...just adds to the charm IMHO.

 

[Timmy390]

I'm of the mind that you will never get your investment back from any classic car or truck (I own several) and should never be looked at as an investment. Why? Because there are professional shops that can and will do all the work cheaper and quicker than the average guy. Not always better but faster and cheaper.

They have all the connections and established suppliers. Dedicated paint and body people and all the tools and equipment to do it fast and cheap.

You estimate 25K in the body and interior. My my experience with budgets is to double them and lets be honest, no one is going to pay 40K for a Bronco that's not perfect. Would you? Sure it looks nice and all but the running gear brakes frame everything else is as it was....rusty old used up parts. Asking 40K and then needing another 20K of mechanical work is not a good selling point. You price the rig out of the common mans hands.

My advice, call the guy that offered 9K and tell him you now have the AX15 and kit ready to go in......Cut your losses or lower the expectations and drive what you have fixing things here and there.

My Bronco story is much the same as Apogee......bought it back 20 plus yeas ago and spent the first year making it safe to drive. It never moved for the first year. It's STILL a work in progress. A labor of love. I don't want a 40K Bronco. I want my rig. Looks rough but is mechanically sound. Fires right up and will go anywhere....Without heat at the moment but that's my call not the Bronco's fault.

I hate it that you got burned I really do but adding 25K or more fuel to the fire only makes it hotter.....

Rule to live by, never expect to get back what you put into it. If you lose 75% you did good.

Tim

 

[SHX669]

I'm in the rebuild for love not investment camp - also the you very seldom recover your costs on a project .
"Old car ' guys for years have always told me " don't be the "first "restorer ; let someone else spend the 1st $20,000 on the ugly / hard to do stuff then buy it for 12 - 15 K when that guy gets tired of the project .

 

[langester]

Sorry to hear your story, definitely post up some pics so we can see what you are working with.

 

[tirewater]

Remind yourself that this is a hobby. Remember that this hobby is primarily dealing with what most people consider junk and how to correct, modify or leave it.

 

[rjrobin2002]

Put that 5 spd in it and buy a third member with a Detroit true trac in it and have fun for a few months and decide. You already have the trans and adding a 5 spd and posi trac increasing its drivability will add $5,000 value in my opinion.

I consider a bronco like yours worth $10,000
I consider a bronco with a 5 spd worth $15,000.

Now getting your money back on a $20,000 body restoration is hard.

 

[DebosDave'72]

 

[DebosDave'72]

 

[DebosDave'72]

 

[DebosDave'72]

 

[DebosDave'72]

 

[DebosDave'72]

I really appreciate the advice so far!! I understand what everyone is saying, and to be clear, I didn't purchase this to flip it. I wanted something I could drive and fix over time. I should have just waited I know. I only decided to try and sell it because I can't really drive it, and could use the money...

 

[Pops68]

By no means am I an expert, but at today's (and 2 years ago) prices, that doesn't look like a bad deal for what you paid. I have seen a lot worse. Now, 10 years or more ago, you might have overpaid.

I do understand the tranny and rear end issues are a 'surprise' to you, but the AX15 will help a lot - I had an NV3550 in mine/similar driving characteristics I would think.

 

[EB70]

I have seen way worse. That is in kind of a nice spot to be a driver. I can't imagine that it wouldn't sell. Seems like everything is selling that is half reasonable.

As everyone has said, once you start in on rust repair it is a long and arduous process. I am just finishing a 2.5 year rebuild on one.

Fun to drive, but they are a tremendous amount of work to redo.

More fun to have a driver...

I concur with the 5-speed and tru-trac comments. The detroit can be a bit cranky sometimes (two of mine have one).

Personally, I would keep it. I am debating getting rid of one of mine but I keep asking myself what is going to cost me when I want another one later on?

At least you know what you have.

 

[DirtDonk]

I'm surprised you could not find someone that would pay the 10grand at some point. In today's market, people are falling all over themselves (sometimes) to pay 10grand for a Bronco.

Looks like you said though. Lots to be done.
That does look like a 435 transmission at a glance. The first gear not being that low may have more to do with your tire size and gearing in the differentials. What size are they?
If you have 3.50 gears and, for example 35" tires, that would definitely make even a 435 seem sluggish in first gear.

What month was your truck built in? Does it still have the driver's door pillar sticker? If not, what is the first letter of your VIN after the U15GL....? Someone will be able to determine when it was built from that, or from your whole VIN if you don't mind posting it. Most of us have over the years just to figure things out.

The reason I ask about it, is that your rear end is not the typical heavy-duty '77 Ford 9" differential housing. It's got the more common, but older "banjo" style housing.
Does it have front disc brakes still?

The rear seat has been reupholstered on the bottom, and the body does look a bit rumpled, but the rust could have been lots worse.
The misaligned panels can have something to do with the body lift, but also over 40 years of use, the frame can be slightly tweaked, the body can be tweaked, or the mounts in-between the two can have been compromised.

You would not be able to sell it to someone in CA or any of the other states that require all the smog equipment to be intact, unless they were informed ahead of time and didn't mind for some reason or another.
But the market these days is all 50 states and then some. So if you still want to cut your losses, there is likely someone out there.

The quickest way to get more money is to smooth and paint it. But that is usually just a lie as to what's underneath and it doesn't sound like you want to hide anything from a prospective buyer. Which is also perhaps why you have not been as "lucky" as some lately.
Lots of Broncos (and I do mean LOTS!) are being sold under false pretenses of being "rust free" and "ready to drive across country" or whatever you can think of. If you've been honest in your advertising about it's condition, thanks for being one of the good guys.
But even with that, I still think a '77 with some clean up can bring 10grand easy.

Seems to me then, that some extensive cleaning underneath, replacement of any parts that leak oil and just look worse for the wear as long as they don't cost too much, getting it running perfectly and feeling good when you drive it, should drive the price right back to where you got it and, maybe, above.
Or is the rust more extensive than it looks? I see some of it, but could not see the usual cancer in all the spots. Maybe I just missed it...

Depends then on how much time you have to devote to it yourself. If you have to pay anyone to do any of the work, you might as well just stop and keep trying to get what you can for it.

So what gear ratios do you have in the differentials? That may be the sluggish behavior. And if so, the AX is not going to help. Only a gear change at great expense is going to help that with any trans.
In fact, installing an AX15 with it's much taller first gear than the NP435 is going to make your take-offs much worse.
So spend the money on the transmission for yourself, but right off the bat that is NOT money that you're going to get back from a sale. At least not in my opinion.
Yes, people like that trans better than the NP for the street, but it's all about your buyer and it's all about the gamble.

Good luck!

Paul

 

[Timmy390]

It's in WAY better shape than mine was when I bought it. It needs floors for sure.....

Swap out the transmission and to save some cash, try to find an open rear to drop in. Then drive it for a bit......Recharge the project batteries so to speak. TrueTrck is the way to...LOVE MINE

Would give you my old limited slip but I broke it in half....well not me the 351W did it....

Tim

 

[thegreatjustino]

That's a NP435 transmission in the photos. Shift pattern is left and up granny low first, down left is second, top middle is third, bottom middle is fourth, down and to the right is reverse.

 

[DirtDonk]

And regarding the "locker" in the rear end, it could be a Detroit I suppose... But just as likely it's either a spool or a "Lincoln Locker" based on your description. So named for the Lincoln welder company, when someone welds the components of the differential together so that everything is acting as one solid piece.

Paul