Project Long Horse

[Yeller]

Didn’t catch it in our discussions, the upper front link being so far foreword really helps control the torque loads. It places the load between the control points instead of in front of it. The further back from axle centerline the link mounts are the more torque load they must endure. It’s also exponential almost 2:1, 1/2” forward of center is equal to adding 1” of vertical separation. Great job!

 

[Hinmaton]

Didn’t catch it in our discussions, the upper front link being so far foreword really helps control the torque loads. It places the load between the control points instead of in front of it. The further back from axle centerline the link mounts are the more torque load they must endure. It’s also exponential almost 2:1, 1/2” forward of center is equal to adding 1” of vertical separation. Great job!

Luck I guess? Intuitive design?
I feel like you had hinted this though…
Anyway- thanks!


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[1970 Palmer]

It takes lots of thinking and planning to pull something like this off. I'm sure you spent lots of nights tossing thinking of how to stuff all of that suspension travel into your plan. I'm not a rock crawler, but another fabricator, and I sure have enjoyed following along with you on your project. Thanks for all of the photos and documentation.
John

 

[Hinmaton]

It takes lots of thinking and planning to pull something like this off. I'm sure you spent lots of nights tossing thinking of how to stuff all of that suspension travel into your plan. I'm not a rock crawler, but another fabricator, and I sure have enjoyed following along with you on your project. Thanks for all of the photos and documentation.
John

Thanks man.


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[stupidboy]

Lookin good man!!

 

[jmhend]

Oh yeah. Now the hard work co.es i to the picture.. body work.

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[sprdv1]

The suspension is complete. Brakes plumbed, exhaust fabricated, Reds mounted. Now I’m back to bodywork, need to at least find something to attach the cage too. Two weeks to stretch goal.

Looking good......

 

[Hinmaton]

So, back to bodywork-
As I have been working on this, my drivers door has slowly sagged about and inch. The front floor frame is just bent and without a floor pan acting as a skin, it’s just not up to the task of holding the middle of the body up anymore.
So I fixed it!

2x2 tube on both sides well anchored to the floor channel.
Next I mocked up my JB Customs triple cable shifter, with a little persuasion, it fit right where I had my twin sticks.
Then I build a new trans tunnel, replaced my floors, worked my one piece floor mat back into place, put my shifters and boots on and added some embellishment to my rear axle housing.

 

[Yeller]

Looks great! Your going to love having integrated the tie down point into the axle

 

[Hinmaton]

Got it outside and took if for a spin, took me a bit to realize that it was in 2low. The JB Customs cable shifters are awesome, just backwards from what I’m used to and apparently I can’t read. Brakes are ish. Do I need a proportioning valve if I’m running disc disc? Not quite done, but I’m thinking I’ll make the trip.
Oh and I was wildly off on ride height. It’s an inch taller than with WH springs and I have the rear at zero preload.


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[DirtDonk]

While you're on the ground, get a measurement between the axles and frame (or is that what you did already?) and let us know what kind of lift you ended up with.

As for the brakes, what's wrong with them that you need to fix?
For a proportioning valve, almost any vehicle can use one as long as it's designed right, and that's with or without discs. From the factory the engineers would have designed the brake sizes into the equation and may not have needed a proportioning valve for the reason we think, because the brakes themselves would have been relatively balanced. Like they did with 4-wheel drums back in the day.what's the problem with the brakes?
In your case, since the disc brakes were never available on the rear, you're subject to what you installed. And what discs are on the front? Factory Ford, or one of the others?

The usual recommendation for a rear-only prop valve is a manually adjustable one. Especially in your case!
That's because your rig is nowhere near stock in front/rear bias and balance. So a manual valve would let you fine tune it more to your vehicles individual characteristics.
But adding either a manual or automatic one will not make your brakes stronger if that's what you need. An automatic (factory) type would have some other handy safety features, but again, neither one makes your brakes stronger.

So let us know what they're doing.

Paul

 

[Hinmaton]

Paul,
I’ll get those measurements. Both front and rear? Also, both axles are pushed a few inches towards the ends, not sure if that will skew those measurements?

The brakes are really mushy. I gravity bleed them (the master was full and the lines were capped off during the entire build) and they felt horrible. Then I realized I put the rear calipers on in such a way that the bleeder wasn’t quite at the top.

So I pulled the calipers and rotated the bleeders to the top, and vacuum bled them both (always starting at the passenger rear) and vacuum bled the fronts while I was at it. Definitely got bubbles on the rear. It was better but still felt like I wasn’t getting more than a 1/4 pedal at best.
I then order one of those pressure systems by Motive Products, that pushes fluid through the master cylinder. Similar process, except I wedged the pads open, then pressurized the system. Got more bubbles at the rear, nothing much from the front. This time the brakes felt better but I only have about half pedal. When I drove it around with the hydro boost active, it definitely stopped, but I only have half pedal.
So I’m guessing the rear still has air. The Corvette style master cylinder has the split reservoirs, with the rear one being the rear. So the half pedal I feel is the front engaging? Or does it engage both at the same time?
The calipers are 1/2 ton Chevy single piston, I believe, the rear is an Eldorado E-brake type.
The only time I have come across this is feeling before is working on a Jeep that had 1 ton calipers and a 1/2 ton master cylinder.
I think my calipers should match the Corvette master.

I do not have a proportioning valve, I’m still running the ‘74 distribution block that was in it.


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[Yeller]

which bore eldorado calipers are you using? depending on which corvette master you have you may not have enough volume for the rear causing the mushy rear

 

[Hinmaton]

which bore eldorado calipers are you using? depending on which corvette master you have you may not have enough volume for the rear causing the mushy rear

Aha! I do not know off hand. I will measure it tonight. What size am I looking for?


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[Yeller]

Aha! I do not know off hand. I will measure it tonight. What size am I looking for?


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Wish I could remember..... but they had bores from 2" all the way up to 3" a corvette master doesn't do anything for the larger ones. One thing to consider, as long as the pedal stroke isn't scary long, the power is good and the balance is good squishy isn't necessarily a bad thing. I used to have a K5 (its where the axles in Broncno came from) with GM D60 front brakes and chevy 3/4 ton rear brakes. I got all freaked out bleeding the brakes because I could push the pedal to the floor with my hand and it never felt firm. Took it for a drive, well before I could push the pedal to the floor all 4 tires were locked up at 70mph throwing everything through the windshield... LOL. Everyone that drove it commented about the spongy feeling brakes but complimented on how it stopped.

Currently I'm running a 1-5/16 bore master on the same axles/brakes. There is an adjustable pressure valve in the rear turned all the way down, which is just barely enough, the rears will still lock before the fronts but its tolerable. I do notice on the trail that I don't have as much total brake power and if we are somewhere where I'm doing a lot of front digs I'll adjust it all the way back out for stronger/faster applying rear brakes.

 

[DirtDonk]

Yes, both front and rear if you can.
I'm not sure just how much of a change that was incurred by moving the axles, but you can estimate it pretty close (it's an approximate measuring system anyway) by eyeballing the frame rail.
If the frame does not change height much from an inch or two rearward in the front and forward in the rear, then the axle-to-frame measurements are probably still a legit tool for assessing ride height.
The height we consider to be normal stock height would net you 7" for the front axle and 6" for the back. Anything over that is your lift.
Hopefully you can find an open space on the tube that you can measure up from. With all that fancy hardware you've got welded on to the rear, it'll be a chore for sure!

If you see just too much change in height at the frame rail, then even though it's no longer a good comparison to other less highly modified Broncos, it's still a good starting reference point for you to use now and for any future changes/tweaks that you put it through.
Or that it puts you through!

Paul

 

[Hinmaton]

Wish I could remember..... but they had bores from 2" all the way up to 3" a corvette master doesn't do anything for the larger ones. One thing to consider, as long as the pedal stroke isn't scary long, the power is good and the balance is good squishy isn't necessarily a bad thing. I used to have a K5 (its where the axles in Broncno came from) with GM D60 front brakes and chevy 3/4 ton rear brakes. I got all freaked out bleeding the brakes because I could push the pedal to the floor with my hand and it never felt firm. Took it for a drive, well before I could push the pedal to the floor all 4 tires were locked up at 70mph throwing everything through the windshield... LOL. Everyone that drove it commented about the spongy feeling brakes but complimented on how it stopped.

Currently I'm running a 1-5/16 bore master on the same axles/brakes. There is an adjustable pressure valve in the rear turned all the way down, which is just barely enough, the rears will still lock before the fronts but its tolerable. I do notice on the trail that I don't have as much total brake power and if we are somewhere where I'm doing a lot of front digs I'll adjust it all the way back out for stronger/faster applying rear brakes.

Interesting. This is what I have:

I think the front is the same size or slightly larger in diameter. The piston is inverted on the front though. I’m guessing the closed piston has something to do with the e-brake part?

I haven’t tried to lock up the brakes under speed yet, but plan too.


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[DirtDonk]

Was wondering the same thing. Most standard calipers (mainly front, but some rears too) use that common inverted cup style piston. The notch in the rear piston does make it look like part of the parking brake design.

Did we go through the whole "rod adjusting thing" earlier on in the thread? Which power assist type do you have at the master? If there is anything larger than a hair as a gap between the booster rod and the back of the master's piston, your pedal may not be mushy, but the travel will be huge!

Paul

 

[Yeller]

yes the closed piston has to to with the parking brake. The fronts should be 2-3/4" but could be 3" or 3-1/8, its really hard to tell the difference without measuring them, I've seen them all boxed incorrectly from the parts store.

That rear piston is huge compared to the Vette stuff, can remember for sure but 1-3/4" is what is in my head for the car.

I've been playing with going to a 2-1/4" bore in the rear to correct the displacement ratio, just haven't crawled down that hole, its not broken LOL

 

[Hinmaton]

Was wondering the same thing. Most standard calipers (mainly front, but some rears too) use that common inverted cup style piston. The notch in the rear piston does make it look like part of the parking brake design.

Did we go through the whole "rod adjusting thing" earlier on in the thread? Which power assist type do you have at the master? If there is anything larger than a hair as a gap between the booster rod and the back of the master's piston, your pedal may not be mushy, but the travel will be huge!

Paul

I have the WH hydro kit with vette master. It worked perfectly with the drum-drum? All I did was cap of the lines at the front and rear tees and then added new hard line and gravity bled them to start.


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