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Project Long Horse

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Hinmaton

Hinmaton

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I’m probably going to need to read this a bunch of times. But it’s fascinating.
I’m doubting the weights myself and it’s quite possible this is the source of the problem to start with.
One assumes the used scales are correct, but never checks to be sure. Ha-
I’m going to put it on the scales again and weigh a known to verify accuracy.
I’ll report back.


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El Kabong

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When you got your weights were any calculations done to know what the actual sprung weight was? Sprung weight is the true weight needed for spring calculations. The sprung and unsprung weight is important for shock valving too.
“The weight of the Bronco is as follows:
LF: 1713 RF: 1697
LR: 1390 RR: 1244

Are you both talking about the same numbers? It sounds like @Yeller is looking for the sprung weight & @Hinmaton might be reporting the full weight for each corner.
 
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Hinmaton

Hinmaton

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Are you both talking about the same numbers? It sounds like @Yeller is looking for the sprung weight & @Hinmaton might be reporting the full weight for each corner.

Yes. I don’t know how to collect the sprung weight only. I think Yeller is calculating sprung weight from the springs in their compressed state. As much as I try to understand combined dual rate spring rates, it just keeps slipping out of my grasp.
I was certain that the upper springs did all the work until the crossover nut was engaged. But on the rear with zero preload and at ride height, the upper (14”) spring measures 10-5/16” and the lower (16”) spring measures 14”.
So clearly both springs are doing work.

[mention]Yeller [/mention]
I’m going to pull the pre-load out of all four corners then take a measurement of each spring and shaft exposed.


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Yeller

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We are talking about 2 different weights but they are related. There is the total weight, which I’m still doubting even my Rockwell axled buggy doesn’t have 2900# of unsprung weight. For spring rates we need the sprung weight, the amount of weight the springs are carrying. That’s all they care about. The springs do work together so you have to add them together and do some math to get the combined rate. I used to have the formulas, but I can’t find my book with all of that stuff in it so I used an on line calculator from FOA.
FOA Spring Rate Calculator

To get true weights you weigh the truck to get total weight. Then pull the spings and release the nitrogen charge, reweigh again using jacks to lift the body off the bump stops, that is your unsprung weight. Subtract that from your total for each corner to get your sprung weight. I used a calculation from your existing springs to calculate weight by how much they compressed.
 

jmhend

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I’m probably going to need to read this a bunch of times. But it’s fascinating.
I’m doubting the weights myself and it’s quite possible this is the source of the problem to start with.
One assumes the used scales are correct, but never checks to be sure. Ha-
I’m going to put it on the scales again and weigh a known to verify accuracy.
I’ll report back.


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Want me to put my fat bump on them? We can get really close with what the scales say. Just a thought.

Or even grab a 45lbs weight. I know you have some known weights laying around.


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Hinmaton

Hinmaton

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We are talking about 2 different weights but they are related. There is the total weight, which I’m still doubting even my Rockwell axled buggy doesn’t have 2900# of unsprung weight. For spring rates we need the sprung weight, the amount of weight the springs are carrying. That’s all they care about. The springs do work together so you have to add them together and do some math to get the combined rate. I used to have the formulas, but I can’t find my book with all of that stuff in it so I used an on line calculator from FOA.
FOA Spring Rate Calculator

To get true weights you weigh the truck to get total weight. Then pull the spings and release the nitrogen charge, reweigh again using jacks to lift the body off the bump stops, that is your unsprung weight. Subtract that from your total for each corner to get your sprung weight. I used a calculation from your existing springs to calculate weight by how much they compressed.
Just a few questions to clarify:
Remove the springs or just have them loosely sitting on the shock body? Or remove the shock altogether?
Somewhat unrelated but related- How do you figure out where to set the crossover nut?

Also, I spoke with folks at Accutune and filled out their spring swap sheet (lots of measuring: eye to eye, shaft showing, upper and lower spring heights, angles and such). They came back with results that didn't make sense to them (conflicting results), but worked from what I have to what I want for ride height and gave me new spring rate numbers:
Front 150/250 - Rear 100/150
I'm happy to share that sheet with you if you're interested.
 

Yeller

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I'd be more than happy to take a look at their sheet. That is part of the issue is there is a lot of different theories on how spring rates should be calculated. I've always used the rule of determine the weight, divide that by the number of inches of compression you want (shaft showing minus shock length) by the weight to determine spring rate. Those rates are actually softer than what I came up with, however it is not out of line. Some theories in calculation say you need a certain amount of preload to adjust for ride height. I have found all of the theories get close, it is very hard to get it exact, there are too many variables, link geometry, center of gravity, shock valving, sway bars, all play a factor and all must work together. I genuinely believe either of the spring rates that either I and Accutune came up with will work, they are not that far off, they probably have a calculation for nitrogen fill that I do not have, with that, I bet mine and theirs are within ounces of each other.

If it were me and looking to get everything I could get out of a set of coilovers, they need to be installed and then carry the vehicle to someone to have them tune the spring rates and shock valving, coilovers are not a bolt on and it works out of the box. They are like building a race engine, they need to be tweaked to make the most power, no amount of canned, guessed at tuning is perfect. Just like tuning that race engine it takes, expertise, experience and being hands on to get the most out of it.

You can have the springs sitting loosely on the body, unbolted from the chassis, anything that that removes the preload from the chassis from the shocks, don't forget the nitrogen charge creates preload, the shocks do contribute some to unsprung weight, not a lot but do some.
 
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Hinmaton

Hinmaton

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So, it looks like it doesn’t matter how long a spacer I put on the shafts:
1696b3a8ec0ea32033f79e337cdfe43b.jpg

That’s not a 007 intro, that’s my other hub!


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Hinmaton

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7d563957071819183e25733d1f6ecaa0.jpg

No center pin on the Grizzly, looks like I need to cut some snap ring grooves.


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.94 OR

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Do these parts not limit axle shaft travel inward?
 

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Yeller

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Do these parts not limit axle shaft travel inward?
no they do not, it is possible to have the shaft slide into both drive gears making it a spool. Unless you are running double spline axles it is not an issue. The spacer I was referencing makes up for the lack of a center pin, holding the axles out in the drive flange. I use a spacer on the double spline axles in my rockwell's in my buggy, on those the drive flange and cap are one piece, no place for a snap ring. We know Hinmaton has access to a lathe so snap ring grooves are a snap but if you do not a spacer works just as well.
 
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Hinmaton

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Yeah, while driving around the campground and dirt roads, a number of times I had the rear axle bind up like a spool, now I know why.

[mention]Yeller [/mention] I sent you the spring swap measurements.
 
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Yeller

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I reviewed the form you sent me and reran my numbers. With the 4” of shaft that you used I came up within rounding distance of the rates they gave you. I used 5” of shaft.
 
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Hinmaton

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I reviewed the form you sent me and reran my numbers. With the 4” of shaft that you used I came up within rounding distance of the rates they gave you. I used 5” of shaft.

That’s great news. When I wrote 4” of shaft, that was to the top of the bumper. So, 4.6”-5” sounds about perfect. They warned me that the spring rates for the rear are outside of what can reasonably driven down the highway. Does this sound right?


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Yeller

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With a sway bar and proper valving I would disagree. If it won’t do highway it won’t do dirt with stability either. I am a believer in tuning the street manners, it will make it more rounded off road.
 
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Hinmaton

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Noted. I have a swaybar on the way.
I asked them about the valving and they said, the front should be fine, however the rear will be stiff, closer to a competition setup. Seems stiff would be okay here?
I like your suggestion of getting with someone to actively tune them, just not sure where to go for that just yet.


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Yeller

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It’s hard to say about “stiff” there are a lot of variables with compression and rebound. As for a tuner I really don’t know anymore. The guy I was using retired. I would reach out to Miller Motorsports, they are in Maryland. Only been around them racing, but are always top notch guys at the track.
 

jmhend

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Noted. I have a swaybar on the way.
I asked them about the valving and they said, the front should be fine, however the rear will be stiff, closer to a competition setup. Seems stiff would be okay here?
I like your suggestion of getting with someone to actively tune them, just not sure where to go for that just yet.


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I’ll be in the “area” this weekend. Let me know if you want me to try to take the shocks north to Millers.


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Hinmaton

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I haven’t got that far. I’m slowly solving all this, but taking a beat to clear my head. Thanks though.


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