Read to Run Dizzys

[bronco italiano]

Based on what I have observed first-hand, starting in the 1980's, I never would advise Pertronix. But that ship has sailed.

My advice to follow Pertronix's instructions is driven by when the unit fails they have less reason to deny any warranty claim. Not if, when.

As I said early in this thread, faced with starting from nothing with no original Dura-Spark II donors available I would use a Dyno_Mod HEI module driven by a Dura-Spark II distributor (new or used, prefer used OEM) and an E-Core coil (GM or Ford). I have done this, but not on a Bronco. I used the GM coil and the Dyno-Mod module driven by the electronic ignition distributor native to that engine.
It is possible to convert the existing points distributor to a Dura-Spark II pick-up assembly. There's only a few good reasons to do this and many more to not do it, but it can be done.
The only RTR distributor that I'd remotely consider would be the DUI.

ETA: Bonus points for finding a remote TFI module's heat sink and using it to mount the HEI type module. HEI modules MUST be mounted on a heat sink of some sort and they MUST be mounted using the heat transfer 'grease' that come with them. No other 'grease' or anti-seize will work in this role. The only acceptable substitute is known as "Arctic Silver". The heat need not be something elaborate, I'd long term successfully used a section of structural aluminum angle.

Exactly.

Remote TFI mount- https://www.mccullyracingmotors.com/index_files/tfikits.htm
I have one just in case

Performance distributors did some Duraspark control modules from a Mopar. I have all the stuff and a few of the modules. They do not sell them anymore. I have two OEM motorcraft modules too.

 

[DirtDonk]

Ended up buying the Pertronix II 91281 and a Flame Thrower II 45001.

Nice. Should be a good combo.
Is the 45001 expecting the full 12v too? I haven't looked at the tech specs in the catalog in a long time.

I am under the impression the Pertronix II needs 0.6 ohms.

Why just "under the impression" here? Doesn't the application guide spell it out?
Is the 45001 a 1.5 coil?

I assume my 12v external resistor coil is 1.5ohms. Need to check later this weekend; given it was for a breaker style points system and these are usually 1.5hms.

If that's the case then it's an easy check with an ohm-meter.
It's funny (and embarrassing!) that in all the years I've loved fiddling with wiring, and all the times I've read the details for testing in the manuals, I've literally NEVER measured the resistance of a coil.
I've never had one go bad, even original factory coils. So it just never came up! Which is why I'm not well versed in the testing procedures. But they're in the books.

Out of curiosity, can the Pertronix II run without long term damage on the 1.5ohms coil?

I'm with the previous mention of check with them on this. I've heard of them lasting forever, and I've heard of them failing. But never the "why" was mentioned in the failure discussions.

Do I need to run a fuse off the voltage regulator before the coil or module?

I would not think so. I think fuses are avoided in general, for ignitions systems, to avoid being stranded. But not sure what kind of protection they need.
I believe modern harnesses do offer fused protection for ignition systems though, so would not be surprised if it's recommended these days.

Can I splice my new wire here at the red arrow?

View attachment 952908

So, what is that wire doing disconnected in the first place?
Are you running an internally regulated alternator and don't use the old voltage regulator any longer? If not, then your charging system should not be working.
And no, if that (seemingly black) wire is not connected to the harness, then you are not going to get power from it for your ignition. It's coming FROM the regulator, not going TO the regulator.
You need to find the other end of that wire where it looks to be Green w/red.

Got more pics of the general engine compartment and a wider shot of the regulator, alternator, distributor and other areas?

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

It does not have enough amperage to run an ignition system, it can trigger a relay.

NOTE: red w/green stripe and green w/red stripe are two different wires.

View attachment 953097 View attachment 953098

To be clear for others, they are different wires and colors, but are in fact coming from the same terminal of the ignition switch.
Whether the Green w/red has enough ampacity to handle an ignition system, you might be right. But I'm not 100% sure. Don't know just how much current an Ignitor II and coil take to work.
But for Tony, this is exactly why the relay method makes the most sense.
The Red w/green wire at the back of the engine (the business end of the resistor wire under the dash that connects to the positive side of the coil) is the one you would want to use to trigger a relay. Not for any major reason. Just for convenience.

The Green w/red wire from the regulator might still be an option of course, but you still need to find it's source near the regulator. It comes out of your firewall connectors and runs over to the passenger side and regulator. But the little bit you were showing in the previous pic is just the part from the regulator. Not visibly connected to anything.
Got more pics and details?

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

As as segué to James and other comments on the instructions, Pertronix and Warn hub instructions (at least in years past) were not written (or drawn) by anyone with a firm grasp on reality.
Since my advice to use either the Green w/red wire by itself, or the Red w/green wire to trigger a relay, seems to be of the old-school-possibly-inviting-disaster variety, let's at least find out more about the overall condition of your wiring harness in general, and the wires in question in particular.
The one single picture of your voltage regulator lends one to believe that your wiring is in relatively normal shape for a '70, that's now 55 years old. In other words, questionable!
Hence my asking for more pics please.

And maybe even some voltage drop tests and such.

Paul

 

[tonytony9]

As as segué to James and other comments on the instructions, Pertronix and Warn hub instructions (at least in years past) were not written (or drawn) by anyone with a firm grasp on reality.
Since my advice to use either the Green w/red wire by itself, or the Red w/green wire to trigger a relay, seems to be of the old-school-possibly-inviting-disaster variety, let's at least find out more about the overall condition of your wiring harness in general, and the wires in question in particular.
The one single picture of your voltage regulator lends one to believe that your wiring is in relatively normal shape for a '70, that's now 55 years old. In other words, questionable!
Hence my asking for more pics please.

And maybe even some voltage drop tests and such.

Paul

I took this video the other day when I was "planning" my Pertronix ignition set up. Hopefully it show you a bit clearer of a picture in terms of my wire setup at the voltage regulator.

Classic Bronco Voltage Regulator Video

In this video, it appears that the green w/ red stripe wire comes out of my wiring harness, connects to that black wire, the black wire runs into a port on the voltage regulator

 

[DirtDonk]

Cool, thanks for the video. And thanks too, for taking the time to let it auto-focus on parts. Came out better than most vids here!
So I see that what I thought your red arrow was pointing too, was just a splice in the ground wire. Is that correct? That why it does appear to be Black?
The Green wire was in the background and I didn't catch it.

All in all, while your wiring is old, it's not hacked up or looking overly deteriorated. At least on the outside.
If you have not, I would pull the two rectangular firewall connectors apart and make sure that the contact points are clean and rust-free. Then put them back together and make sure they're fully seated.
I'm a fan of a very light bit of di-electric grease in there too. Using electric grease is probably the more appropriate product, but it seem to me that it would be too easy for it to migrate. And since it is conductive, might cause some issues down the line with shorting the different circuits together.
But others here will know for sure what the most appropriate move is with those connectors.
Well, the "most appropriate" is usually to replace the harness with them included! But that's more than we're talking about here, and would be more project creep than called for.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Oh, and two things. Now that I'm using the big screen, I see where the Green wire is in relation to your Black wire, and the red arrow. Sorry about the confusion on my part.

But second, if you ever decide to paint up your engine and valve covers, don't mess up that decal!
Way too many of us have trashed the original factory decals, that are now highly sought after prizes. Yours might be one of the early ones with not much detail, but it's still cool to see an intact original.
Might check to see if there are reproductions, before you clean things up too much.

Paul

 

[tonytony9]

NO

You haven't correctly identified source of resistance wire.


Source of resistance wire is terminal "C" at ignition switch.
View attachment 953092
It is the pink wire (Ø16).
It is located behind dashboard.
It changes color at the bulkhead connector (C)
View attachment 953093
On engine side of bulhead connector (C) it becomes red with green stripe (16) and terminates at the red connector (B) for engine harness.


Also note that terminal "C" of ignition switch is source for green with red stripe wire (904).
View attachment 953092

This wire goes to bulkhead connector (D).
View attachment 953094

and continues on to voltage regulator.
View attachment 953095

It provides key on power to turn regulator on, so battery can be charged.
View attachment 953096

It does not have enough amperage to run an ignition system, it can trigger a relay.

NOTE: red w/green stripe and green w/red stripe are two different wires.

View attachment 953097 View attachment 953098

Okay, this breakdown is really helpful. Thank you. So, wire 904 that I identified at the regulator is one of two wires that have the keyed source. 16 being the resistance wire. 904 having 12v but cannot run the electronic ignition.

904 at the regulator can trigger a relay. B post at the starter relay can provide the power supply to the relay.

 

[DirtDonk]

904 at the regulator can trigger a relay.

Just thought of something else that makes the Red w/ green wire the best candidate.
Forget for now that it might only have six volts, because that should still be sufficient to trigger the relay.
But using the section from the engine side of the connector (the part that connects to the coil) ensures power in both RUN and START because it is already connected to the Brown wire from the “I” post on the starter relay.

B post at the starter relay can provide the power supply to the relay.

Yes.

 

[tonytony9]

Cool, thanks for the video. And thanks too, for taking the time to let it auto-focus on parts. Came out better than most vids here!
So I see that what I thought your red arrow was pointing too, was just a splice in the ground wire. Is that correct? That why it does appear to be Black?
The Green wire was in the background and I didn't catch it.

All in all, while your wiring is old, it's not hacked up or looking overly deteriorated. At least on the outside.
If you have not, I would pull the two rectangular firewall connectors apart and make sure that the contact points are clean and rust-free. Then put them back together and make sure they're fully seated.
I'm a fan of a very light bit of di-electric grease in there too. Using electric grease is probably the more appropriate product, but it seem to me that it would be too easy for it to migrate. And since it is conductive, might cause some issues down the line with shorting the different circuits together.
But others here will know for sure what the most appropriate move is with those connectors.
Well, the "most appropriate" is usually to replace the harness with them included! But that's more than we're talking about here, and would be more project creep than called for.

Paul

Okay, I see both my angles are confusing things. The black wire you are seeing that is spliced is the ground. The black wire is connected to 904 from the harness. So, 904 runs out of the harness and instead of going directly into the voltage regulator, it is spliced into the black wire. The black wires is then running into the voltage regulator. Not sure why the previous owner did this.

 

[tonytony9]

But using the section from the engine side of the connector (the part that connects to the coil) ensures power in both RUN and START because it is already connected to the Brown wire from the “I” post on the starter relay.

In this configuration, I would have to cut off the terminal connection (the rubber boot that connects to the post on my coil), splice on a new wire to run it to the relay, I presume? As there is not much slack and I am pretty sure I should not be setting up a relay on my block or intake. That sound right?

 

[DirtDonk]

Yes to cutting off the end. But for reworking the wires, I was figuring that by then you would be opening up the harness to re-route any wires to wherever you needed them anyway.

But to your point, there’s nothing inherently wrong with mounting a relay on top of the motor.
As long as you use a high quality piece, of the weather proof type.
Keeping them away from heat and gas is always a good practice of course! But up front in the fan wash shouldn’t be all bad. I’d still prefer either on the firewall, or over by the battery, but you’re not limited to those positions.

No matter what though, you’re going to be re-configuring at least some of the original wires.

 

[ntsqd]

Or running new wires. If you don't want to open up the harnesses and move the wires around it's OK to connect new wires to the ends of the old wire, and then take it to where it needs to go. That connection needs to be insulated from going to ground, and electrical tape isn't going to work. Adhesive lined heat-shrink would be my preferred choice.

 

[tonytony9]

Or running new wires. If you don't want to open up the harnesses and move the wires around it's OK to connect new wires to the ends of the old wire, and then take it to where it needs to go. That connection needs to be insulated from going to ground, and electrical tape isn't going to work. Adhesive lined heat-shrink would be my preferred choice.

Yes to cutting off the end. But for reworking the wires, I was figuring that by then you would be opening up the harness to re-route any wires to wherever you needed them anyway.

But to your point, there’s nothing inherently wrong with mounting a relay on top of the motor.
As long as you use a high quality piece, of the weather proof type.
Keeping them away from heat and gas is always a good practice of course! But up front in the fan wash shouldn’t be all bad. I’d still prefer either on the firewall, or over by the battery, but you’re not limited to those positions.

No matter what though, you’re going to be re-configuring at least some of the original wires.

Thanks fellas. My first exposure to electrical was building Lionel trains growing up, many years ago. I've got my heat shrink, flux, and solder handy. Life skill I am glad to have held onto.

1. Does anyone know what gauge or type of wire I would have to use from the resistance wire to the relay? (coil positive wire). I assume it should be the same as the wire I am splicing off as this is a resistance wire.

This month's Hagerty Drivers Club had a great article titled "Understanding Relays.":

Question about Relays, the article says I *need* to run two different currents through a relay. Is that always the case? If I *must* have two different currents, then this reinforces that I would have to run the extended resistance wire to terminal 86, 6-8 volts. Then the 12v source, B terminal on starter relay to terminal 30 on the relay. Terminal 87 to the positive post on the Flamethrower coil. Positive post on coil to red wire on Pertronix II. Negative post on coil connects to black wire on Pertronix II.

 

[ntsqd]

I've never phrased it as "two different currents", but I can see how that would make it easier to grasp.

A relay's coil needs very little power to operate. A 16 or 18 gauge wire should be all that is necessary to extend the resistance wire. As to the type of wire to use, TXL I think is considered to be the ideal automotive wire, but I tend to use Ancor Marine wire because it has tinned strands for corrosion resistance.

A co-worker at a previous employer once worked for Boeing and while there was assigned solving the "Solder vs. Crimp" debate. He spent 18 months devising and conducting experiments and concluded that when properly done that neither had an advantage over the other. The crimp is faster, and correctly soldering requires an elevated skill set. A crimp done with a cheap tool is no better than a poorly executed soldering job.
For this extension, and given that being able to go backwards appears to be desirable I would be inclined to put a ring terminal on the end of the resistance wire in place of the OEM Ford 'push-on' connector and another one on the extension wire. Use a small screw & nut to hold them together, and cover it all with some heat-shrink. This will be ugly, and it isn't SOP, but right now it is the least intrusive to the OEM loom connection method that I can think of to extend the wire. If being able to go back to points isn't desirable then I'd follow the wire back to the firewall connector and permanently extend it there, cutting the resistance wire portion off.

 

[Brush Hog]

Do you mean resistance wire (ballast resistor)?

Yes sorry. Brain vapor locked. I’m no pro at wiring or electrical but neither Petronix I installed were that difficult. No rewiring or cutting/splicing. Was truly “plug and play” started right up ran like a charm. First one (the magnetic ring that slips over distributor shaft forget model number) lasted 8 years before started getting intermittent spark issues. Switched to the Petronix 3 which is entire distributor. Runs much better.

 

[DirtDonk]

My first exposure to electrical was building Lionel trains growing up, many years ago. I've got my heat shrink, flux, and solder handy. Life skill I am glad to have held onto.

Heck yeah! Good skill learned by having fun.

Does anyone know what gauge or type of wire I would have to use from the resistance wire to the relay? (coil positive wire). I assume it should be the same as the wire I am splicing off as this is a resistance wire.

Well, yes and no.
Yes, you should use the same gauge. Not for current carrying capacity for once, but because it's easier to connect the same gauge wires together.
And no, it's not a resistance wire you're connecting to. Sorry to confuse the issue, but what you're going to be working with is the "other end" of the resistor wire.
The resistor part is under the dash and wrapped in heat-barrier jacketing (the resistance causes lots of heat!) and separate from the other wires in the harness. The part you see on the outside of the firewall (colored Red w/green) is just normal wire.
So no special needs in making connections. The part about not splicing into a resistor wire is legit. So you must take care if every modifying the part under the dash. But the part in the engine compartment of an Early Bronco is just normal wire.

This month's Hagerty Drivers Club had a great article titled "Understanding Relays.":
Question about Relays, the article says I *need* to run two different currents through a relay. Is that always the case?

It's never the case. After all "you" mustn't do anything but connect it correctly. The RELAY is what runs two currents to do it's job. You just connect power, load, and ground to the correct locations and let the relay do the rest.

If I *must* have two different currents, then this reinforces that I would have to run the extended resistance wire to terminal 86, 6-8 volts. Then the 12v source, B terminal on starter relay to terminal 30 on the relay. Terminal 87 to the positive post on the Flamethrower coil. Positive post on coil to red wire on Pertronix II. Negative post on coil connects to black wire on Pertronix II.

You're reading too much into their details. And confusing "current" (amps) with "power" (voltage). Oops, watts!
A relay usually has a specification on how much voltage is required to energize the low-current side. Sometimes it's as wide as "5 to 40 volts" or it might be narrower, such as "6-18v" or something. Meaning you can use a resistor wire to trigger #86 in most cases.
Most relays are rated in AMPS (current) which is for the high current side. So if you have a 20a, 30a, or the more common these days, 40a rated relay, it can safely control power to a devices that draws less than 40 amps. Your needs are probably down in the 10-15 amp range at the most (probably less) so won't tax a 30 or 40 amp rated relay.
This method (using a relay) takes all of that current load off of the often overworked Bronco ignition switch, and puts it on the relay.
So that's what you're doing here. Two things. Taking the amp load off of the ignition switch, and ensuring a full voltage and amp load reaches the ignition system when it needs it.

The article uses the phrase that I've been using for many years. "A relay is simply a remotely controlled heavy duty switch" or words to that effect.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Corrected above thanks to ntsqd. Watts a watt? What?
Never was good at electrical theory and tech. I just know which wires go where
Usually…

 

[ntsqd]

Who's on First?

 

[DirtDonk]

Watts on second!