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Steering conversion issues

robsim111

New Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
18
Hey guys, I converted my 69 Bronco from manual to Power Steering. I used a stock box that I had rebuilt by West Texas Offroad, new saginaw pump, hoses, rag joint, steering damper, track bar is tight, and no wobble from tie rods or ball joints. However, I now have sloppy steering starting around 60mph, and I've read several sloppy steering threads including this one:

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207744

I see it says test the u-joint above the steering box, but what exactly am I checking for? When the vehicle is stopped and turned off, I still have quite a bit of play in the wheel. Also I am able to wiggle the u-joint slightly. Should it be tight and unmovable?

Also, when the vehicle is turned on, and I turn the wheel, the steering box does have slight movement. Maybe 1/4" of movement? The frame is not cracked or warped, however.
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,105
You mean the box is moving on the frame?
Any of the true u-joints should have zero play in any direction. The old original "tulip" joint could easily have play, but that should have been replaced when the box was anyway. Don't think it would even fit, at 3/4" x 36 vs the power steering's 13/16" x 36.

Did you verify that the box is perfectly centered when your wheels are perfectly straight?
Did you do anything else at this tine that might effect things? Such as install a lift kit or different tires and/or wheels?

It's not common, but not completely unheard of either for a box to come back rebuilt but improperly set up for preload.
Basically you need to do the full test here, with the full weight of the truck on the tires on the ground, where a helper saws the steering wheel back and forth enough to wiggle the tires, while you watch and touch everything under there.
If your box is indeed moving on the frame, then something is wrong. It's obviously not supposed to move. Period.

Anything that's even a tiny bit loose is going to add to anything else, but it sounds like you're saying it steers fine up to about 60, then starts acting funny.
That's strange in itself, but these rigs are finicky about stuff sometimes.

Anyway, back to the top for you too. Not often a good juicy steering question gots a full day without an answer!;D

Paul
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,105
Oh, and welcome to classicbroncos too by the way!
Is this Bronco new to you? Or have you had it a long time?

Good luck with the steering issue.

Paul
 
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robsim111

New Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
18
I bought this Bronco 2 years ago as a rust bucket, and have basically gutted it and redone everything except some suspension. It was manual steering, but I did some craigslist hunting and got a steering column, and upper/lower steering rods, and a steering box from random people across the state. The U-joint on the lower rod is stock, and out of a 74. The box was from a 77 I believe, but as stated earlier, it was rebuilt professionally. The rag joint I used to connect steering rods is brand new. I've lifted it it up with a jack already, and nothing seems loose. The box has no give, trackbar bushings are good, new steering damper, and none of the tie rods have any sort of wobble.

The vehicle does have a 2.5" lift, but I added a drop pitman arm. I realize it only requires the drop for 3.5" or more lift, but I needed an arm without the key holes so that I could keep it on center.

Also, this is my first vehicle I've taken the initiative to work on past brakes/oil changes. I've done all of the motor work by watching youtube videos and lurking on this and a couple other sites. Rewired the whole thing, replaced all lines, acid washed/sealed 23 gallon tank, did all body work, prepped, painted, upgraded most of motor etc. I actually went and bought a motor crane and stand and am rebuilding another 302 I received for free to swap in. So yay!

The only thing now is learning about suspension and steering, because that is the only thing left to do on it. (until I fix it and another problem occurs)

edit: Thanks Paul! I'm glad to be here, in a non lurking fashion of course.
 

Skiddy

Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
11,557
I bought this Bronco 2 years ago as a rust bucket, and have basically gutted it and redone everything except some suspension. It was manual steering, but I did some craigslist hunting and got a steering column, and upper/lower steering rods, and a steering box from random people across the state. The U-joint on the lower rod is stock, and out of a 74. The box was from a 77 I believe, but as stated earlier, it was rebuilt professionally. The rag joint I used to connect steering rods is brand new. I've lifted it it up with a jack already, and nothing seems loose. The box has no give, trackbar bushings are good, new steering damper, and none of the tie rods have any sort of wobble.

The vehicle does have a 2.5" lift, but I added a drop pitman arm. I realize it only requires the drop for 3.5" or more lift, but I needed an arm without the key holes so that I could keep it on center.

Also, this is my first vehicle I've taken the initiative to work on past brakes/oil changes. I've done all of the motor work by watching youtube videos and lurking on this and a couple other sites. Rewired the whole thing, replaced all lines, acid washed/sealed 23 gallon tank, did all body work, prepped, painted, upgraded most of motor etc. I actually went and bought a motor crane and stand and am rebuilding another 302 I received for free to swap in. So yay!

The only thing now is learning about suspension and steering, because that is the only thing left to do on it. (until I fix it and another problem occurs)

edit: Thanks Paul! I'm glad to be here, in a non lurking fashion of course.

wow that is an accomplishment in itself:cool: if you cant see any movement from the tie rods, track bar bushings, steering shaft to the box ect. I would look at the wheel bearings and even the ball joints if a d44 or king pins d30. welcome to the site
 

66broncoCT

Contributor
Full Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
301
Loc.
Torrington, CT
You say you jacked it up and can't see any play in the steering. But what you need to do is what Paul calls "the test" With full weight on the ground you have someone rock the steering wheel back and forth while you watch every component in the system. I usually start at the column and follow the movement down to the box then to the drag link and lastly the tie road ends. Any input on the steering wheel that doesn't move the next part of the system is play and it all adds up quick when you're doing highway speeds. The rod ends shouldn't pivot or move with out turning the wheels. Sorry if you know all this just figured I'd spell it out.
 

DuneBuster

Sr. Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
423
Loc.
Canton
We had a similar problem in upgrading our box with a Southwestern Texas rebuild. Problem was the Rag joint. we replaced it with a Borgeson link and universal joint. You cut to length and re-bolt the cut off end and it cleaned up our problem. we went from being limited to about 45 to running 80 on the freeway with little play.
another trick is to use oversize heavy duty washers on the bolt/nut faces to the frame.

Good Luck
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,105
...The box was from a 77 I believe, but as stated earlier, it was rebuilt professionally.

A '76 or '77 box would have about 4 to 4.5 turns lock-to-lock. This is one way to tell which one you have, but very often a rebuild includes the quicker steering of the later models anyway. So either way you would have the better setup.

The rag joint I used to connect steering rods is brand new.

Rag joints are typically fairly tight. Even though they're intended to be "flexible" in a way, they have good rigidity radially, so don't often contribute to play when new and installed properly.
Of course, as you can see from DuneBuster's reply below, that ain't always so...

I've lifted it it up with a jack already, and nothing seems loose.

You can't use this test. It's pretty much useless until things are really worn. And with most of your stuff being new or almost new, you won't see much using your hands. What 69broncoCT said is the way to go. You need a helper, but it can be a real eye-opener sometimes.

The vehicle does have a 2.5" lift, but I added a drop pitman arm. I realize it only requires the drop for 3.5" or more lift, but I needed an arm without the key holes so that I could keep it on center.

Good for keeping it on center. You can also file out the master splines to let your stock arm rotate out of phase. But that's not working as you think. If you need to rotate the arm on the box, then the box in NOT centered. The correct way to correct this is with an adjustable draglink.
You need to do two things here then. You absolutely must install a dropped trackbar bracket to match the dropped pitman arm or you're just fighting yourself. You must also re-center the steering box. Both of these things are fighting your good steering and I'm surprised you only notice it at 60 mph our more.
You need to fix those two things one way or another before (or at least at the same time) you do other things.

The only thing now is learning about suspension and steering, because that is the only thing left to do on it. (until I fix it and another problem occurs)

Haha! Yep, that's the way of the Broncos. Fix one thing then some more drama crops up somewhere down the line.
But yours is at least now coming clear. Your steering system on these trucks is best when both the draglink and the trackbar are parallel, the same length, and pivoting in the same plane.
Just as important is keeping the overall angles as low as possible, which is why I personally think it's a good idea to use the drop arm and bracket even with just a 2.5" lift. It's not "necessary" but it does help.

Your box has it's on-center position which is the only place it should be when the truck is traveling straight down the road. This is not quite as important as the other aspects, but it's still quite important.
Double check your center with the draglink (or pitman arm) disconnected so you can put the box to both limits and count the turns precisely back to center. Then make sure your steering wheel is centered on the box at this position so you can use it for reference from here on out.
Then keeping your steering wheel straight when going straight means you know your box is centered. The draglink (like this: http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Adjustable_Drag_Link_30in_6675yr) will let you get there.
The trackbar drop bracket also serves to get your axle closer to centered with the lift. An adjustable trackbar is your friend here, letting you fine-tune the positioning, but with the drop and a 2.5" lift it's not completely necessary. The draglink is still a good thing though.

Good luck!

Paul
 
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robsim111

New Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
18
I appreciate the quick replies. I just learned a lot from all of your suggestions. I'll work my way down the steering, and I'm almost certain I'll need a new steering U-joint, until I make it down to the weighted buddy check. Also, I have the disposable income, so I may upgrade to the borgenson joint. Gonna check the toe as well (didn't know what toe was, even though I've seen it mentioned several times.) I'm going to assume its out of allignment, because when I first installed the power steering, I had dropped the track bar to change my oil pan gasket, and forgot to reinstall before turning wheels. It is installed now, but I may or may not be out of allignment.

Should I go ahead and replace the stock draglink with an adjustable?
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,105
...Should I go ahead and replace the stock draglink with an adjustable?

Not necessarily. While I think they're the cat's meow, and would love to sell you one as well, I'd wait until you get the other stuff dialed to make sure you even need one.

Then again, it's a must for fine-tuning that last little bit of centering of the linkage, so it's a win-win no matter what. But if the dropped arm and bracket combination put your 2.5" lifted truck perfectly centered back where the factory had it, then you won't need one.

Paul
 

DuneBuster

Sr. Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
423
Loc.
Canton
An adjustable drag link and drop bar for it helps. we also got a drop Pittman arm to get the steering link and drag link to be in the same plane.

Good point on checking toe in. that helps you keep center.
 
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robsim111

New Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
18
I appreciate the quick replies. I just learned a lot from all of your suggestions. I'll work my way down the steering, and I'm almost certain I'll need a new steering U-joint, until I make it down to the weighted buddy check. Also, I have the disposable income, so I may upgrade to the borgenson joint. Gonna check the toe as well (didn't know what toe was, even though I've seen it mentioned several times.) I'm going to assume its out of allignment, because when I first installed the power steering, I had dropped the track bar to change my oil pan gasket, and forgot to reinstall before turning wheels. It is installed now, but I may or may not be out of allignment.

Should I go ahead and replace the stock draglink with an adjustable?
 
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