What is the latest and greatest EFI

[bmc69]

you have one

I'm just kidding, I know that solution is not for everyone.

True trailblazers install fuel-injected 8BA flatheads in their EBs. Jus' sayin'...

 

[1969]

Not everyone that has or wants a Bronco is a diehard Ford guy. Some just want a reliable, fun toy to enjoy. I’ll gladly swap an LS into mine.

I pondered an explorer 5.0, but I have issues with the swap. The cost of a complete non junker explorer in my area is $1500+, they’re pushing 30 years old now, 200ish hp, only ONE guy can reliably tune the pcm and he’s been handicapped by the epa, and he also has a long wait time typically, the wiring harness is a mess and old and brittle, I don’t want to mess with tearing it apart.

I can get pullout truck 5.3 LS with ~100k on it at a full service wrecking yard for $700, motor mounts, headers, ECU and NEW harness, adapter plate to my ZF5 for another $1500 or so. Plus some other little odds and ends and be in a perfectly good running fuel injected motor for around 3k altogether. The proflo is pushing on that 3k door and still doesn’t come close to the factory fuel injection that an LS offers.

And a Coyote is laughable unless you have deep pockets.

 

[Viperwolf1]

And what happens when he’s not doing that anymore? Again single point of failure and those swaps will be done and gone.

I'm pretty sure my point was to get spares made up front when they are cheap and available. Lots of 25 year old explorers out there running perfectly fine on their original ECMs and 250,000 miles. How many do you think you're gonna need?

 

[Johnnyb]

Yeah but really, its not a check engine light its a code you read when you want it, so no egr delete? So what, in fact, you van make the canpurge stuff work with the efi computer, ignore the egr

EFI Guy told me that the check engine light would always be on with his program. Of course that indicates a code, but still.

 

[1969]

I'm pretty sure my point was to get spares made up front when they are cheap and available. Lots of 25 year old explorers out there running perfectly fine on their original ECMs and 250,000 miles. How many do you think you're gonna need?

0 because I’m not doing that swap.

 

[73azbronco]

EFI Guy told me that the check engine light would always be on with his program. Of course that indicates a code, but still.

Only if you have a check engine light on your dash.... You won't, right?

Most don't use that, its older OBD1 with connection under hood, if you pull the harness and use the tranny, thats technically OBD2, with standard OBD plug under dash, but does not make it OBD2, OBD1.5 I think.

Now, everytime you pull codes, you will see the egr fail, that will not hurt the engine if you have the delete fake EGR plugs.

 

[chuck1022]

I guess my 2 explorer purchase is not a total loss .

I can use the rearends for projects...or sell them.

I can use the engines, serpentine system.

I can sell the AOD's......

I am sure that other things can be sold.......

Maybe I will get into a more affordable hobby of aircooled porsches or older BMW's. Those probably aren't frustrating

 

[Johnnyb]

I would argue that explorer ECMs are easy to find and cheap. If you have EFIguy program your ECM you might as well have a backup or 2 cloned at the same time. How much would it cost to have a backup ECM for an off the shelf system?

$622.95 for Proflo 4

 

[bmc69]

The more I read..the more I like the ACES TBI.... I'm about 90% certain that's the direction I'm taking on the Ford 534 builds.

 

[1969]

The more I read..the more I like the ACES TBI.... I'm about 90% certain that's the direction I'm taking on the Ford 534 builds.

Why is that? Just looks like another sniper kit with a different name.

 

[Yeller]

Why is that? Just looks like another sniper kit with a different name.

It has a separate ECU that is not integrated with the throttle body. IMO the issue with sniper and Fitech is their electronics become very sensitive due to heat. In a ford engine the dizzy is too close as well causing RFI interference. Should be more dependable.

 

[njy229]

I don't know if these guys are an alternative to EFI Guy. I would think you would still run into the emissions issues. Prices look pretty high too but maybe helpful to someone.

On the latest episode, Ian from the 4 Wheeler show mentioned he uses this company on a lot of his builds for harnesses and computer programing.

FORD HOT ROD HARNESSES

www.hotwireauto.com

 

[toddz69]

I'm pretty sure my point was to get spares made up front when they are cheap and available. Lots of 25 year old explorers out there running perfectly fine on their original ECMs and 250,000 miles. How many do you think you're gonna need?

That's what I've done. My original A9P is still doing fine with 200K+ on it (knock on wood). Have a spare with fresh capacitors in it in reserve. I also had Garry do 2 ECMs for me when I had him make my harness.

Todd Z.

 

[ba123]

You could always try Tweecer to program the stuff you don't want out of there if it works for the ecu you have or go Megasquirt or one of the others.

I went Megasquirt. Hopefully not too far off from first start. Definitely more work and more money but I thought it was worth it...hopefully I still feel that way when done, but I can have or not have whatever I want.

I have a large amount of stuff not going on there, including EGR. I don't have the room for EGR even if I wanted it.

 

[EFI Guy]

My policy change isn't anything new, it's been this way for several years now. In the golden age of hot-rodding, race parts were simply sold "for offroad use only".
Well, the .gov has decided that there is no offroad exemption, so any production vehicle or engine that had emissions equipment from the factory must retain it forever.
This .gov policy was snuck into Congress and buried under medium-duty truck mpg standards and they signed off on it. If you go to buy speed parts from your favorite vendor you will notice that where it used to say "for Offroad use only" it now says "for 1966 vehicles only".
I believe the reason for going back that early is to protect themselves from CARB as well. The RPM ACT was written up to protect the automotive aftermarket from this overreach. Sadly, I'm told it has been kicked back out of committee. I encourage you all to write your congresscritters to get it passed.

If you stop and think about what this means, most drag cars are illegal if they were built from a production vehicle. The same goes for most circle track cars, dirt racers, etc...
If you want to partake in any sort of motorsports, you better have the money for a tube frame and Dart block, or build something early enough that it is exempt unless you keep it stock with all emissions components intact.

In theory, if you bought an Explorer engine and put a carburetor, Mustang EFI, or throttle body EFI setup on it, it's now illegal too! If you swapped from a 2bbl to a 4bbl and the manifold doesn't have the government's blessing, that's illegal too.
Now I heard a rumor that because Holley has deep enough pockets that they have their own lab and the EPA allows them to "self-certify". I can see that being ok for using Sniper as a carb replacement, but I don't see how it would be ok for something that requires OBD2 monitoring.
So I'm not sure if that is true or what sort of blanket certification is allowed to them.

Now I haven't heard of them going after any vehicle owners, but you should still know what is legal and what isn't and get that info from an actual lawyer and not some dumb retired auto mechanic like me.
It seems that their biggest targets are tuners (despite the fact that every tuner's goal is to make the engine run as efficiently as possible). They have also gone after people selling MIL eliminators and exhaust companies that sell cat-less exhausts.

We are in a weird position because we typically want modern engines in older "exempt" cars. It's a grey area for sure. There are still companies out there that will sell an LS harness and deleted ECM for your early vehicle. That just sounds too risky to me being that the LS should retain that stuff forever.
So my policy is to limit tuning to PATS deletes and gear and tire corrections if the vehicle or engine had any sort of smog equipment. While fining me would be like getting blood from a turnip since my lifestyle change has me living happily below the poverty level, I think I'm still too pretty for prison and the risk isn't worth it.

Now I'm not sure where everyone gets the idea that I'm the only guy that can tune an Explorer PCM. That may have been true for the first two years, but there are several name-brand companies that can tune them now. I'm just obviously the most experienced with this system. You can typically do a PATS delete and tire corrections with just a handheld tuner, but it's going to cost double what I charge.
You can tune them yourself or with my "consulting" if you like. I no longer remote in and tune everything for you, but I can offer templates that you import into your tune to get you dialed in. I just don't touch the actual tune file or write it to the computer, and it's on you to seek the government's blessing when it's done. While that method gets expensive, it's cheap compared to the cost of an aftermarket ECU.
Deletes have now been pushed offshore. There are companies now that are located in places like the Bahamas that sell deleted tunes to diesel truck users, so all going after the tuners has really done is directed more money out of the U.S. I haven't heard of them offering it for gas vehicles, but give it enough time and I'm sure it will happen.

The EGR and CATS really are not that hard to adapt in. I Like to run CATS in everything, even my race car just because it reduces stink. The tricky one to make work is the EVAP system. I am planning to release a product that will make that easier to use with our Bronco tanks, but I just have too much going on to finish the CAD side of things right now.
There are Explorer-swapped Broncos out there running 100% legal in some difficult states like CA and CO. The difficult part about it isn't making them legal, it's the different answers you get from the bureaucrats.
While I don't recommend not hooking up the check engine light (that would be illegal) There are people who have done so while waiting on my EVAP product that report no ill effects to the way the vehicle runs and drives.

To address the other "single point of failure" issue. The Explorer system is OBD2. OBD2 is still the standard that ALL mechanics use today. As a mechanic when someone would come in with an aftermarket EFI system my boss would tell them to look for a speed shop that works on that system. OBD1 Fords were often referred to our shop because I was "the guy" in the area who knew that system and had the breakout box and tools to work on it properly.
Mechanics don't like to learn new things on rare systems that they will never touch again. The time spent learning is time not making money and it isn't likely you will see a bunch of cars with that aftermarket system. Whereas OBD2 is the standard that everyone knows. So if I'm not around in the future to remote in and look at stuff with Forscan, any shop should be able to help.
The computers have a very low failure rate. I can think of 2 that failed for no apparent reason, and 2 that were obviously shorted out, this is out of countless computers. They are far more reliable than the Mustang computers and I expect them to last far beyond most of the aftermarket computers. They are still plentiful in junkyards so grab an extra if it's a concern. I offer a discount on the second flash.

So, I may be biased, but I still think the Explorer system is the best bank for the buck, especially if you want 4r70w control. The current waitlist for a harness is about 90 days. I expect that to go down significantly over the winter.

 

[ba123]

My policy change isn't anything new, it's been this way for several years now. In the golden age of hot-rodding, race parts were simply sold "for offroad use only".
Well, the .gov has decided that there is no offroad exemption, so any production vehicle or engine that had emissions equipment from the factory must retain it forever.
This .gov policy was snuck into Congress and buried under medium-duty truck mpg standards and they signed off on it. If you go to buy speed parts from your favorite vendor you will notice that where it used to say "for Offroad use only" it now says "for 1966 vehicles only".
I believe the reason for going back that early is to protect themselves from CARB as well. The RPM ACT was written up to protect the automotive aftermarket from this overreach. Sadly, I'm told it has been kicked back out of committee. I encourage you all to write your congresscritters to get it passed.

If you stop and think about what this means, most drag cars are illegal if they were built from a production vehicle. The same goes for most circle track cars, dirt racers, etc...
If you want to partake in any sort of motorsports, you better have the money for a tube frame and Dart block, or build something early enough that it is exempt unless you keep it stock with all emissions components intact.

In theory, if you bought an Explorer engine and put a carburetor, Mustang EFI, or throttle body EFI setup on it, it's now illegal too! If you swapped from a 2bbl to a 4bbl and the manifold doesn't have the government's blessing, that's illegal too.
Now I heard a rumor that because Holley has deep enough pockets that they have their own lab and the EPA allows them to "self-certify". I can see that being ok for using Sniper as a carb replacement, but I don't see how it would be ok for something that requires OBD2 monitoring.
So I'm not sure if that is true or what sort of blanket certification is allowed to them.

Now I haven't heard of them going after any vehicle owners, but you should still know what is legal and what isn't and get that info from an actual lawyer and not some dumb retired auto mechanic like me.
It seems that their biggest targets are tuners (despite the fact that every tuner's goal is to make the engine run as efficiently as possible). They have also gone after people selling MIL eliminators and exhaust companies that sell cat-less exhausts.

We are in a weird position because we typically want modern engines in older "exempt" cars. It's a grey area for sure. There are still companies out there that will sell an LS harness and deleted ECM for your early vehicle. That just sounds too risky to me being that the LS should retain that stuff forever.
So my policy is to limit tuning to PATS deletes and gear and tire corrections if the vehicle or engine had any sort of smog equipment. While fining me would be like getting blood from a turnip since my lifestyle change has me living happily below the poverty level, I think I'm still too pretty for prison and the risk isn't worth it.

Now I'm not sure where everyone gets the idea that I'm the only guy that can tune an Explorer PCM. That may have been true for the first two years, but there are several name-brand companies that can tune them now. I'm just obviously the most experienced with this system. You can typically do a PATS delete and tire corrections with just a handheld tuner, but it's going to cost double what I charge.
You can tune them yourself or with my "consulting" if you like. I no longer remote in and tune everything for you, but I can offer templates that you import into your tune to get you dialed in. I just don't touch the actual tune file or write it to the computer, and it's on you to seek the government's blessing when it's done. While that method gets expensive, it's cheap compared to the cost of an aftermarket ECU.
Deletes have now been pushed offshore. There are companies now that are located in places like the Bahamas that sell deleted tunes to diesel truck users, so all going after the tuners has really done is directed more money out of the U.S. I haven't heard of them offering it for gas vehicles, but give it enough time and I'm sure it will happen.

The EGR and CATS really are not that hard to adapt in. I Like to run CATS in everything, even my race car just because it reduces stink. The tricky one to make work is the EVAP system. I am planning to release a product that will make that easier to use with our Bronco tanks, but I just have too much going on to finish the CAD side of things right now.
There are Explorer-swapped Broncos out there running 100% legal in some difficult states like CA and CO. The difficult part about it isn't making them legal, it's the different answers you get from the bureaucrats.
While I don't recommend not hooking up the check engine light (that would be illegal) There are people who have done so while waiting on my EVAP product that report no ill effects to the way the vehicle runs and drives.

To address the other "single point of failure" issue. The Explorer system is OBD2. OBD2 is still the standard that ALL mechanics use today. As a mechanic when someone would come in with an aftermarket EFI system my boss would tell them to look for a speed shop that works on that system. OBD1 Fords were often referred to our shop because I was "the guy" in the area who knew that system and had the breakout box and tools to work on it properly.
Mechanics don't like to learn new things on rare systems that they will never touch again. The time spent learning is time not making money and it isn't likely you will see a bunch of cars with that aftermarket system. Whereas OBD2 is the standard that everyone knows. So if I'm not around in the future to remote in and look at stuff with Forscan, any shop should be able to help.
The computers have a very low failure rate. I can think of 2 that failed for no apparent reason, and 2 that were obviously shorted out, this is out of countless computers. They are far more reliable than the Mustang computers and I expect them to last far beyond most of the aftermarket computers. They are still plentiful in junkyards so grab an extra if it's a concern. I offer a discount on the second flash.

So, I may be biased, but I still think the Explorer system is the best bank for the buck, especially if you want 4r70w control. The current waitlist for a harness is about 90 days. I expect that to go down significantly over the winter.

Wow, awesome detailed explanation! I've had to order a few parts lately that "cannot be sent to your address"... and wondered what the change was since my Bronco does not have smog requirements and hadn't had the time to look into it.

And I agree with you that the Ford EFI systems are the best. And good explanation of what's really going on. Are you doing the tuning in Forscan, or that's just how you're remoting in. I'm somewhat famailiar with it and have it for my Raptor and customized a good amount of stuff using it. My 911 works the same exact way as well and I had a tune done where I sent the guy my standard tune file (program called Durametric) and he sent back the modded one and I uploaded it to my ecu. Eazy peazy.

 

[EFI Guy]

I only use Forscan to remote in and help diagnose. They are supposed to be working on a method to program earlier vehicles and there is now a cable that supports it as far as hardware is concerned. So programming with it may become an option in the near future.

I am very familiar with Durametric and have had a few conversations with Duram myself. But I haven't worked for the Porsche shop for almost 2 years now, I didn't know that they added programming to it. Very cool!

 

[ba123]

I only use Forscan to remote in and help diagnose. They are supposed to be working on a method to program earlier vehicles and there is now a cable that supports it as far as hardware is concerned. So programming with it may become an option in the near future.

I am very familiar with Durametric and have had a few conversations with Duram myself. But I haven't worked for the Porsche shop for almost 2 years now, I didn't know that they added programming to it. Very cool!

I did the Porsche stuff back in 2015 and I might not remember all the details. I have Durametric and can modify stuff in a similar way to Forscan on my Raptor, but for the Porsche tune, I might have just needed the Durametric cable and they used their own program.

 

[EFI Guy]

Gotcha. It's possible it had that ability all along and I just never noticed it in the menu since we didn't do any sort of tuning at the shop. It was hands-down the best for diagnostics though.

 

[chuck1022]

, I may be biased, but I still think the Explorer system is the best bank for the buck, especially if you want 4r70w control. The current waitlist for a harness is about 90 days. I expect that to go down significantly over the winter.

great to know , thanks for the response. Makes me feel better knowing I have stockpiled 2 explorers for future projects.

what is the EVAP ?