Clutch Issues

[Iron Knight]

Hi there, guys... and greetings from Chile. Please, let me tell you my sad, boring story...

I have a 1966 Bronco, which had a 289 V-8 engine in it, and I wanted to make an engine upgrade, 'cause I wanted my Early Bronco to pull a little more, in order to tow my boat, since this "boat", a Sea Ray SRV-255 Flybridge, it's a little too big for the Bronco (perhaps I should get myself a Freightliner to pull it? ). I bought a 5.8L, casting number begins with F4TE, which makes me think that it's a 1994 (maybe 1995) truck engine, according to the info I've gotten so far. I wasn't sure what kind of a truck the engine was in when they pulled it out, but my strong belief is that it belonged to a F-350. The engine also came with a gearbox, a ZF S5-47, which I got rid of (sold) right away, 'cause it was 2WD, not 4WD (not able to install my Dana 20 behind it, it would've been the first 2WD Bronco), and I didn't want to go for the "budget" solution... anyway, besides of the typical engine rebuilding (pistons, piston rings, bearings, gaskets and so on, so forth), I wanted to get rid of the "hoses & wires salad" EFI system, and made it carbureted; installed an Edelbrock Torker II, carburetor adapter and a Rochester Quadrajet (yeah, it's GM, not Ford, I know) I found among my stuff, and the engine runs nice and smooth, which is good. I also put a Proform HEI distributor on it, wires, plugs, etc., very good, smooth running, no smoke (not visible, at least)...

I payed little attention to the clutch, though; a quick check, pilot bearing was OK, pressure plate was OK, disc was OK, alignment was OK... it was time to bolt the good old 3-speed tranny (Ford 3.03), along with the good old Dana 20, to the 5.8L engine... it was like this:

- The 289 had a 157-tooth flywheel... the 5.8L engine has a 164-tooth flywheel. Time to get another clutch bellhousing... I got it, good fit, no problem.
- The clutch fork of the 289 was of the bail wire style... the new bellhousing couldn't fit the bail wire style clutch fork. Time to get another clutch fork (the tab style one)... I got it, along with a new throwout bearing, no problem.

Engine, tranny and transfer case are on frame... yeah!!! Way to go!!! Hoses, wires, everything hooked up... start the engine... feels like WOW!!! But, when I tried to put it in gear, the gearbox made a diarrhoea-like sound (or maybe it was my belly, since I was so anxious and nervous)... reverse gears are not meshing, and syncronizers are not syncronizing...

The clutch won't disengage, no matter how precise the adjustment is... on my way to remove the whole thing and see what's going on...

Now, refreshing my memory a little bit, I realized that the engine has a LuK 07-117 clutch kit, which is the one that comes with those ZF S5-47 transmissions, equipped with the so-called "concentric slave", hydraulic throwout bearing. Clutch disc is a little bigger than the stock 11 inch, 11 9/16 inch, if I'm not mistaken. The spline count is the same (10), the input shaft outer diameter is the same, 1 1/16 inch. It could be that the disc hub got stuck in the input shaft, but I don't think so, for the shaft splines and disc hub splines were in good shape, no rust, clean and well lubricated. It could also be the pilot bearing, but I don't think so either, 'cause there are no noises. Because I didn't have an alignment tool at the time, I aligned the clutch disc with the very same Ford 3.03 tranny input shaft, since the tranny was out of the vehicle and dismantled back then (rebuild time), and the shaft was turning on its own axis very softly, very smoothly, I really don't believe there was any problem with the pilot bearing, even though it is highly recommended to replace it every time you service the clutch.

Is it possible that the pressure plate is too tight on the flywheel, perhaps too much torque on pressure plate fasteners? Does this kind of clutch work with normal (standard) throwout bearing?

Please, help me... I'll be reading your comments... thank you so much...

 

[DirtDonk]

Great story Iron Knight. Well, great in the writing and reading, but not in the subject department. Sorry you’re having a hassle.
We were just talking about the smaller flywheels and I thought they were only on the six-cylinder engines. Learn something about 66’s almost every day these days.

Can’t really help unfortunately and I don’t have my clutch listings in front of me so I don’t know right off the top of my head which one that is that you have.
Not sure what is used with the other transmission, but with your stock three speed and Windsor engine you should just use a standard 11 inch replacement clutch and throw out bearing for a later year bronco. Everything should be compatible that way.

Good luck. Hopefully others know for sure.

 

[m_m70]

Welcome Iron Knight!
That's a hell of a lot of boat you got there to tow with an EB or any other short wheel base truck!!
I'd be really concerned with brakes and suspension/handling.
Sorry, can't help much with your clutch issue.......someone should chime in on that soon though. Great group here!

 

[Timmy390]

When I installed my 351w from a 1996 E350 van replacing the old 302, I bought a new 28oz Balance, 164 Tooth flywheel and a Luk diaphragm style clutch kit for a 74 Bronco. The stock 3 speed and starter work like a charm.

Tim

 

[Iron Knight]

Yeah, well... it happens that, on early 351W's, like the '69 ones and also others, the flywheel is the same one (157-tooth) that comes with my good old 289; but, seemingly, starting from a certain year (1980, I think) flywheels got upgraded, bigger, heavier, and the 157-tooth flywheels were no longer used... and the same thing happened with the clutch kits: in the beginning, there were 10 inch discs, and 10 15/16 inch discs, along with their corresponding pressure plates, of the same size, and that's why all the "conversion" kits also come with the proper flywheel, so you won't have any problems. Therefore, in the beginning, I was going for a '69 351W, since these engines seem to be more powerful, for they have more compression, and all that, and also because they share the same bellhousing, and the clutch kit, and everything else. Now, those engines are a little hard to find here in my country (Chile), so I went for the second best choice, the 5.8L.

About the clutch, there are pictures of that clutch kit (the LuK 07-117) at the Summit Racing website, http://www.summitracing.com. The only thing I can catch, by taking a look at that picture, is that the LuK 07-117 clutch kit is not sold with the normal throwout bearing (the one with the clips), so my guess is that this clutch kit is meant to work only with the hydraulic, concentric slave type of bearing, not with the normal, or "conventional" one, so, errr... if I were going for the 11 inch stock clutch, which one would you recommend? Any brand in particular, like Sachs, or other one? How can I tell if my clutch is of good quality? Anyway, I'll try my luck on any of those sold at Jeff's Bronco Graveyard (there seems to be a stock problem, though) or at Summit Racing, and see how it goes.

Thanks again...

 

[Slednut10]

The LUK clutch kit for the 11” ford is #07-027

 

[Iron Knight]

When I installed my 351w from a 1996 E350 van replacing the old 302, I bought a new 28oz Balance, 164 Tooth flywheel and a Luk diaphragm style clutch kit for a 74 Bronco. The stock 3 speed and starter work like a charm.

Tim

Thanks for your reply, Tim... it's good to know that, makes me feel a lot better, having in mind that the engine works fine. Sometimes I wonder why Ford didn't use the 351W's in the first place... it has so much power... any problems so far? Did you keep it EFI, or did you make it carbureted?

 

[DirtDonk]

Interesting about the fly wheel size. Never saw that.
And yeah, we’ve been asking for 45 years why Ford didn’t offer both the NP435 transmission and the 351.
The Broncos were not treated with much love inside the corporation.

 

[Iron Knight]

Yeah... it was kind of surprising for me too, you know? I've always seen posts on Internet, in the U.S. and abroad, where people have Ford Windsor engine parts for sale, such as the clutch bellhousing, and it always says "289/302/351W", as if the same bellhousing fits all the three engines, and I'm sure they fit, as long as your flywheel is a 157-tooth (about 13" and fraction in outer diameter)... but you gotta believe me, no matter how hard I tried to put the 289 bellhousing on the 5.8L, just over the flywheel and ring gear, nothing more, it wouldn't fit... and there's not much difference between the two of them, I mean, the bolt pattern and other parameters seem to be exactly the same, but still it wouldn't fit... and this is absolutely critical, for the starter goes bolted on the bellhousing, and you gotta have the right housing for the right flywheel and ring gear, or otherwise the starter won't engage properly, among other problems... of course, now I know everything about it (the 164-tooth and 14" and fraction in outer diameter thing), but at that time I had no idea whatsoever... thank God I didn't force anything, I could have broken some parts... everything is so hard to get these days, prices, transportation and all that stuff, with this punishment from God (or bio-terrorist attack) that they call "pandemic"...

 

[DirtDonk]

Sounds like you had a frustrating, but enlightening learning curve.
I assume most people list them as fitting all those engines because the main bolt pattern to the block is the same. And then they just don’t know, or care to differentiate between the different clutch sizes.

And I don’t know that this would be accurate either, but if the unit has a Ford engineering number then it could narrow down the choices some if it has a “T” in the third position instead of an “A” instead. Denoting a truck-specific part.
The A parts are automotive from a specific line such as “Falcon” for example, but could be found on trucks too if specialized parts were not required. But where “T” parts were more often found only on trucks.

So a “D1TZ 4019 AA” for example might be a better choice than a “C8AZ 4019 AA” at least on the surface.
Those numbers were just wild examples and don’t have any specific meaning other than the comparison of the first few digits and the general format of their numbering system.

 

[Timmy390]

Thanks for your reply, Tim... it's good to know that, makes me feel a lot better, having in mind that the engine works fine. Sometimes I wonder why Ford didn't use the 351W's in the first place... it has so much power... any problems so far? Did you keep it EFI, or did you make it carbureted?

No issues so far.....been running it for a few years now. I reused about everything from the van including the pan and front dress (some mods required). EFI the shot answer is Yes.....I used the van harness and modified it to SN95 Stang mass air. I run a complete Explorer upper intake and cast iron gt40 lower with gt40p heads.

Tim

 

[jhill52]

Sounds like you may have the wrong throwout bearing. If its too long it would not might not allow enough travel. I have seen this before. LUK is an OEM supplier and one of the better brands of clutchs. I recently had to replace my clutch. Went from a lever style clutch to a Diaphgram style. Kit I bought had a pilot bearing throwout bearing, pressure plate and disc. I talked to their Tech line people and they were very helpful in getting the correct kit. Ypu might call them.

 

[Iron Knight]

Sounds like you had a frustrating, but enlightening learning curve.
I assume most people list them as fitting all those engines because the main bolt pattern to the block is the same. And then they just don’t know, or care to differentiate between the different clutch sizes.

And I don’t know that this would be accurate either, but if the unit has a Ford engineering number then it could narrow down the choices some if it has a “T” in the third position instead of an “A” instead. Denoting a truck-specific part.
The A parts are automotive from a specific line such as “Falcon” for example, but could be found on trucks too if specialized parts were not required. But where “T” parts were more often found only on trucks.

So a “D1TZ 4019 AA” for example might be a better choice than a “C8AZ 4019 AA” at least on the surface.
Those numbers were just wild examples and don’t have any specific meaning other than the comparison of the first few digits and the general format of their numbering system.

Oh yeah, man... definitely... there are certain things that are never mentioned, not even in the finest manuals you can find, not even in the digital (PDF) ones, so we're always learning something new every day... about the casting number, there are websites like http://www.fordification.com (mostly Ford pickups), where you can find a lot of good info, especially when it comes to identifying your engine... for example, those casting numbers you mention above, the "D1TZ 4019 AA" and the "C8AZ 4019 AA" can tell you a lot about the engine you have, like the year (when it was made) and other characteristics... I have the "Chilton's Repair & Tune-Up Guide" for the Ford Bronco 1966-83... it's an old photocopy, so I'm giving it a "computer treatment" before turning it into PDF, and I hope I can finish it soon enough and upload it here (if the website allows me, of course; if not, I'll give you the link)... the book doesn't say anything about casting numbers, but still it's a very good source of information...

 

[Iron Knight]

The LUK clutch kit for the 11” ford is #07-027

Good, I'll go for that one... thank you, my good friend...

 

[Iron Knight]

Sounds like you may have the wrong throwout bearing. If its too long it would not might not allow enough travel. I have seen this before. LUK is an OEM supplier and one of the better brands of clutchs. I recently had to replace my clutch. Went from a lever style clutch to a Diaphgram style. Kit I bought had a pilot bearing throwout bearing, pressure plate and disc. I talked to their Tech line people and they were very helpful in getting the correct kit. Ypu might call them.

When you replaced your clutch... did you have to replace your flywheel, too? What did the tech people from LuK tell you? I'm asking you this, because it is said that it's not recommended to replace the clutch kit alone, I mean, it is said that, when you go from lever style to diaphragm style, you should also replace your "lever style flywheel" with a one that "accepts" (or is designed for) a pressure plate of the diaphragm style, or otherwise the flywheel might blow up at high RPM, because it's not designed for that application... well, that's just what it's said, of course (kind of gossip, if you ask me, not really tech stuff), there's a lot of false concepts, and mistakes, and everything, maybe it's not true at all, maybe it's just a "commercial hook", sort of speak, so you also buy the "diaphragm style flywheel", even though there's nothing wrong with the one you have... I'm gonna ask 'em anyway, thanks...

 

[DirtDonk]

I never heard the blow up scenario, but quite often you have to replace the fly wheel because the bolt patterns for the clutch covers are different. So in some cases a diaphragm style clutch literally won’t even bolt onto it where the older three finger style set up had been.
I don’t think that’s always the case, but I don’t know.

 

[DirtDonk]

And only the actual casting numbers will have the date of manufacture. The engineering numbers we cited were strictly the design stage. So a “D1t…” even though it’s a part for a 71 model truck, a part with the same engineering number might be used for two, three, or even more years.
And although during that run you might see changes in the final lettering. Those last letters denote updates to the same basic design. Where going from a D1 to a D7 for example would indicate a more substantial change.

The first sequence indicates the year and product line that particular part was destined for. The second string of numbers was the category (for example engine block, or fly wheel) And the third segment of letters are the generational updates.

 

[Timmy390]

Got my 28oz Balance, 164 Tooth flywheel from Jegs (had a free shipping promo)

555-601350

F/WHEEL 67-87 SBF 164T 28

100.99​

Nothing special about it. Luk clutch kit from RockAuto LUK 07-120. Everything bolted up.

I hit the rev limiter a couple times and nothing has blown up yet.

Tim

 

[jamesroney]

I never heard the blow up scenario, but quite often you have to replace the fly wheel because the bolt patterns for the clutch covers are different. So in some cases a diaphragm style clutch literally won’t even bolt onto it where the older three finger style set up had been.
I don’t think that’s always the case, but I don’t know.

This is correct. The naming conventions always go from what "was" to what "is." Starting iwth CASTING numbers, the root number for a flywheel is 6380. The first 164 tooth small block flywheel in the passenger car was the C5AE-A, and it came with an 12-3/8 pressure plate bolt circle patterned for a Long clutch. So the bolt pattern is 2x3 uneven. It could be found in a 66 Bronco with the "big" 11 inch clutch. The C5AE-E flywheel is almost identical, except it is drilled with an 11-3/8 pressure plate pattern, to accomodate the "small" 10 inch clutch. The 10.5 inch clutch is a bastard, and was used in the Hi Po 289 with the small flywheel, small pattern. It's basically an oversized plate stuffed into an 11-3/8 bolt circle long clutch. The disc measures 10-3/8 which causes great confusion 30 years later when the 5.0 gets a 10-3/8 disc. So the 5.0 metric diaphragm clutch is named the 10.4, and the 289 HiPo clutch is named the 10.5. Hot rodders and performance enthusiasts learned quickly that the 10.5 HiPo clutch was a bolt in for any 11-3/8 long pattern flywheel. (157 or 164 tooth) Since they are about 25% stronger, LOTS of them got installed, and the aftermarket sold a bunch of them.

Fast forward to the 70's, and the diaphragm clutch becomes the preferred standard. Since the dia.phragm cover is stamped metal, and the diaphragm fingers are equally spaced, the clutch bolt pattern becomes equally spaced. So now an 11 inch pressure plate with even spacing will not fit a flywheel drilled with unequal spacing. So a whole bunch of new flywheels get made with equal spacing. But the aftermarket is pretty efficient. Someone at LUK figured out that they could build a diaphragm cover with BOTH patterns. (equal space, and Long) Then the replacement cover is universal. A little later on, some Flywheel maker figured out that he could pattern the 164 tooth flywheel for BOTH 12-3/8 patterns and viola! Instant confusion.

So now you can buy a diaphragm pressure plate, and a flywheel that has either or both patterns.

But wait...there's more. By the time the 80's come around, Ford figured out that the 157 tooth, 11-3/8 pattern diaphragm clutch can be made better if it is located by dowels. And the 10.4 metric 5.0 clutch was born. Please don't get me started on the Mopar 10.95 inch clutch.

So, as Paul correctly points out...the diaphragm clutch originally would NOT bolt on to a long pattern flywheel, but it is no longer always the case.

Here's a picture of the Oreilly 164 tooth 50 oz, F150 flywheel, Line: PTQ | Part # NFW1128. ($75.00 with a lifetime guarantee) It has more holes in it than Biden's border…

 

[Iron Knight]

Got my 28oz Balance, 164 Tooth flywheel from Jegs (had a free shipping promo)

555-601350

F/WHEEL 67-87 SBF 164T 28

100.99​

Nothing special about it. Luk clutch kit from RockAuto LUK 07-120. Everything bolted up.

I hit the rev limiter a couple times and nothing has blown up yet.

Tim

U-huh... so everything is just malevolent gossip, or the so-called "commercial hook", after all... good to know that, 'cause if a flywheel blows up, it means that engineers are doing something wrong... right? It's something you can hear about a lot in the racing circles...