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Engine cranks but doesn’t want to start after running

ksbronco75

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I’ve read a few forums where this could be an issue with the carb being hot and burning the fuel. Saw some people recommend a 1/4” spacer on the carb. Mine runs fine but once it runs for a while and I stop at a gas station cause it chugs fuel, it tries to crank but doesn’t want to start. It’s like a slow crank noise. Then on about the 3rd try it huffs and puffs and starts back up. A buddy recommend putting an inline electric fuel pump in with a toggle switch to fill the bowl to give it fuel to start better. Said it’s common in warmer climates. Anyone tried this?
 

Slowleak

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Yup.... check your timing like Ared77 said. It may be too advanced. You could retard it just a little and see how it does. If the fuel was evaporating from the bowl, the engine would still spin like normal when cranking. A hot engine will ignite fuel faster than a cold one. If your timing is too advanced, it will fire way too soon and fight against the starter...
 

DirtDonk

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What they said. Plus other things like a weak older starter, or battery cables that are deteriorating, or even a battery that has seen it's last winter (but that usually happens on the first start attempt, not after driving) and stuff like that.

But about your Bronco, what year is it? What engine? What ignition? Headers?
How old are the starter and cables?
What carburetor? Stock?

If it was cranking at normal speed, just not starting, it might be fuel related. Easy to check that too by using the "flooded engine start" method of holding the throttle all the way open (do not pump, just hold) and crank the starter again and see if it starts any quicker.
But since you said it cranks slowly when this happens, it's more likely to be what was said above, as opposed to a fuel percolation issue.
But never rule anything out!

And since tune-ups are important for so many things, make sure your ignition is in good shape and adjusted properly. They do come out of adjustment after a time.

Paul
 

jckkys

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Both the above posts describe phenomena that explain or partially explain your problem. The first is called percolation where the fuel in the float bowels gets hot enough to boil away. The fuel vapor fills the intake, making an intake charge to rich to to ignite. Cranking will pump the vapor out, fill the float bowls, and let the engine start. Insulating carb spacers and heat shields help. Don't pump the accelerator.
The second problem is kick back. The timing is set for idling not cranking. Cranking is much slower so pistons are moving up when the ignition fires pushing the piston back down and stopping the rotation. Once the engine starts, momentum over comes this kick back. Two things that help are a high torque starter and slightly retarded timing. The Duraspark II modules retard the timing 4 degrees during cranking. Those EBs that don't have Duraspark can have it retro fitted. High torque starters like the Mean Green help too.
 
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ksbronco75

ksbronco75

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75 bronco. It has a brand new blueprint 302 from the mid 80s engine block style. TBP long tube headers. Battery cables are brand new. Starter cable is new. Starter I’m not sure on. I converted to points about 5 years ago. 600 Holley carb. I’m gonna mess with the time first. Although this did the same thing before the new engine install so maybe a new starter could be in store too.
 

DirtDonk

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I suppose if I'd actually paid more attention I could just have guessed it was a '75 based on your username! But it's still good to confirm because even that's not guaranteed since many members put numbers in their names based on the year they were born, or graduated high-school or college, or whatever floated their boat.
Thanks for filling in the blanks. Some of them could be big clues. Time will tell.

And yes, could be the starter. But if ignitions can come out of adjustment, a points type ignition is the poster child for that! So yeah, could be the same reason as before the new engine, or slightly different too, if your new engine is a higher compression, or the right type of cam to increase dynamic compression as it's spinning.
Were the headers installed on the old engine too? If so, then it could be as simple as an old starter getting heat-soaked by the headers, plus higher compression, plus a little too much timing advance.
Or even the distributor needing service, for perhaps having the advance mechanism sticking or a spring having broken or whatever.

Still a few things to check then.

Good luck. Hope it's the simple and cheap fix!

Paul
 
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ksbronco75

ksbronco75

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Headers were installed on the old motor too. I’ve heard of the heat soak in starters... how can that be prevented??
 

blubuckaroo

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75 bronco. It has a brand new blueprint 302 from the mid 80s engine block style. TBP long tube headers. Battery cables are brand new. Starter cable is new. Starter I’m not sure on. I converted to points about 5 years ago. 600 Holley carb. I’m gonna mess with the time first. Although this did the same thing before the new engine install so maybe a new starter could be in store too.

If part of the problem is fuel percolating out of the carb, you need to fix that. That gasoline is running down the cylinder walls washing off the oil film, and also contaminating the motor oil in the pan.
It's a bad thing for a motor.
 

DirtDonk

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Headers were installed on the old motor too. I’ve heard of the heat soak in starters... how can that be prevented??

A few different ways (other than getting rid of the headers of course!) including the hi-torque starter that jckkys mentioned earlier. They're smaller so there is more clearance for air flow, but also have a higher threshold for heat.
However, since it's the heat that's the problem, the old-school method was to reduce that with insulation or shielding. In fact, the aftermarket was rife with starter heat shields for Chevy V8's that had this issue forever.

You can wrap the headers, you can wrap the starter, you can now buy shields for Fords, or you can make your own. Or even find something in the junkyard from a Ford perhaps? I don't know about that, but the factories often install really nice heat shields for items that are near the exhaust in their performance and heavy-duty vehicles.

Wrapping the headers has a bad rap for trapping moisture and rusting out the headers, but if they are stainless that might not be a big issue. Or it might, not sure. Might not be as big a deal in areas with dryer climates, or where the vehicle is driven regularly to the point of burning off moisture and not re-condensing and sitting for long periods.

Along the lines of the better starters, you could up-size the starter and battery cables too. I know you said they're newer, but if they're the stock 6ga stuff you would not be doing a bad thing by going with 4, or even 2 gauge instead.
It's not necessarily a guaranteed cure, but it eliminates one aspect of the hard cranking due to heat. It lets the starter pull more current without over-taxing the cables as quickly.
But even at that, it's more of a Band-Aid fix, rather than an actual fix for the heat problem.

Those are a few things to consider.

paul
 
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ksbronco75

ksbronco75

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I’ll look into these over the weekend. Thanks for the tips fellas
 

jckkys

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Ford developed several strategies to deal with heat soak. They put heat shields like this; https://www.ebay.com/itm/1983-Ford-...317?hash=item2d1f6ab1ad:g:TzQAAOSwg3Jf1nRi,in Mustang 5.0 GTs and 5.8 HO trucks and vans. They also put insulating carb spacers like this; https://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLLEY-4-B...059019?hash=item217bce9d4b:g:kRYAAOSwCB5flxGp, in Mustangs and 4bbl trucks. These would be a good start in dealing with heat soak. The kick back can be eliminated by retarding the timing, just the minimum needed. More timing produces more power and MPGs. The points distributor was an ignition down grade from the '75 Breakerless Ignition. By reinstalling the '75 distributor and a '76-'86 Duraspark II module with the Duraspark II harness you get the 4 degree timing retard during cranking, to ease starting after heat soak. This condition isn't new. All the manufacturers have been working to cure this for decades. Just a heads up; summer makes it worse.
 
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ksbronco75

ksbronco75

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Who’s got the tech article to help me switch back to electronic ignition? I’ve got a context wiring harness in it, so I’m sure it’s just a matter of adding and removing, but I wasn’t the one who installed the points so any help would be nice
 

DirtDonk

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I almost hate to add this additional layer of choice/confusion, but you could also just convert the existing points distributor to Pertronix as well.
I hesitate because frankly I'm a big fan of Ford's factory electronic ignition. The "Breakerless" (early name) and "Dura Spark" (later name and what most people still semi-erroneously call all of them) are great setups and I converted to that on my '71 using the module that jckkys mentioned earlier. And you've already got at least some of the wiring (can we see pics of what you have?) and that makes going back to Ford almost a no-brainer.
Just thinking that if the existing distributor is in good shape still, it's a good platform for the simpler Pertronix Ignitor conversion. Might depend then on how easy/quickly you find a correct '75 module for your existing harness.

You can identify the later model module by it's Blue "Grommet" color. I don't remember if your '75 is one of those that can be plugged right into the blue grommet module or not though. Seems like yours was different so you might have to use a '75 specific module. But jckkys would know if he sees this and can give you the gory details.
And for my own info, were the '75 modules different between CA and FED vehicles? Seems they were, but again I don't remember all those little details (almost never do!) to make sure everything is compatible.

In spite of it's high quality spark, I have to say Ford never made it easy, what with all the different color modules (like 6 or more of them?) and wiring schemes. Not a bad thing to make them different of course, with different parameters needed and not wanting owners to cross-breed stuff. But after all these years it is certainly a pain sometimes.
There were Yellow, Red, Brown, Black, White, Blue, Orange some with only one wire strain relief (grommet) and others with two. And one I think with three. Only a few of which were cross-compatible with the wiring.
CA calibrations, FED calibrations, and even high-altitude and hot-climate calibrations. Gotta' hand it to GM with their crummy;) HEI setup. They changed the internal module wiring and parameters, but kept the same simple "power, ground, tach" wiring scheme on the outside.
Hurts to say that sometimes, but it's true enough. So credit where credit's due.

Speaking of credit where it's due though, have you ever looked under the cap of a modern MSD, Mallory, Accel, and even some Pertronix distributor? A slight variation on the Ford Breakerless/Dura Spark trigger. Fires up on almost every brand of distributor now. Great design.

Paul
 
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ksbronco75

ksbronco75

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Soo electrical is not my game at all. Half of what you posted went right over my head. I’ll have to look and send pics when I get back to it. I’ve been reading about the colors and years and admit to be a little intimidated. I don’t have a trusty mechanic up here to even think of sending it to. I might have the originals that came off this bronco, but then again I’m not sure why a mechanic switched it to points. I do remember that when it had an electronic ignition I never had this “heat soak” issues, which leaves me to believe the 4 degrees retarded timing at crank helps tremendously. Let me round up some of the wiring paperwork and get pics. I dunno who the electrical guru is.. the jccsksy* seems like he’s done this a time or two. I’d gladly let someone hold my hand to help me switch back lol. Everytime I change something I have to learn it. Thanks for the help and advice so far
 

DirtDonk

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Great. And if you have the old parts, even better!
Yes, jckkys is a guru at not only the Ford ignition, but a lot of '77 specific stuff too. A few good electrical types around that should be able to help.

And yes, by all means if you have the old stuff and it worked before, definitely try it. It's possible the mechanic ran into trouble with it and could not figure it out (not uncommon if they're wiring from scratch, but not sure why in this case), or just did not want to charge you for diagnosing time and trouble when they could just pop in a set of points and make it run.
It is fairly intimidating wiring even for a mechanic, especially if they're old-school and know their way around carburetors and points, but go all glassy-eyed when talking about fuel-injection and electronic ignitions and resistor wires and coil ohm ratings and such.
No way to know unless you can talk to the same person I guess.

Good luck with the parts search. Hope they're there!

Paul
 
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