Read to Run Dizzys

[DirtDonk]

And just so you know, in case you weren’t aware already, the reason we’re talking only about the red with green stripe, and the green with red striped wires, is because those are the only two wires on a stock Bronco wiring harness, that are hot in both RUN and (theoretically) START. And yet not powered when the key is in the ACC position.
This is important so that you don’t burn out your ignition components while listening to the radio or doing other work on the vehicle.

 

[tonytony9]

And just so you know, in case you weren’t aware already, the reason we’re talking only about the red with green stripe, and the green with red striped wires, is because those are the only two wires on a stock Bronco wiring harness, that are hot in both RUN and (theoretically) START. And yet not powered when the key is in the ACC position.
This is important so that you don’t burn out your ignition components while listening to the radio or doing other work on the vehicle.

I confirmed I am getting about 6.4v via the resistance wire to the coil, and a full 12.3v at the voltage regulator via that green w red.

Before I move forward with buying a Pertronix module, I wanted to post this video of my Autolite 12127F C8TF 9H11 distributor. I don’t have a (dual gauge??) to measure how much play there is in the shaft bearings. And without taking the dizzy out, does the shaft look like there is a lot of play?

My concern with buying a new dizzy right now is that when I eventually change motors, I’ll be going with a roller. I know I can change the heat, but if I can avoid that by buying a dizzy to match the new motor I’d prefer it.

Distributor Shaft Play??

 

[tonytony9]

I confirmed I am getting about 6.4v via the resistance wire to the coil, and a full 12.3v at the voltage regulator via that green w red.

Before I move forward with buying a Pertronix module, I wanted to post this video of my Autolite 12127F C8TF 9H11 distributor. I don’t have a (dual gauge??) to measure how much play there is in the shaft bearings. And without taking the dizzy out, does the shaft look like there is a lot of play?

My concern with buying a new dizzy right now is that when I eventually change motors, I’ll be going with a roller. I know I can change the heat, but if I can avoid that by buying a dizzy to match the new motor I’d prefer it.

Distributor Shaft Play??

@Oldtimer @ntsqd

 

[ntsqd]

Normal for there to be some up/down play, it is the side to side play that it shouldn't have.

No, the distributor gear needs to match/work with the cam in the engine. A roller cam is going to need a different gear than a flat tappet cam.

 

[tonytony9]

Normal for there to be some up/down play, it is the side to side play that it shouldn't have.

No, the distributor gear needs to match/work with the cam in the engine. A roller cam is going to need a different gear than a flat tappet cam.

Yes agreed on all the above. What I am wondering is what is the difficulty level and cost of switching out the dizzy gear should I get a new motor? Is there a typical tolerance for the side to side motion that is acceptable? If so, how can I measure it? Does anyone know an east coast dizzy rebuilder?

 

[DirtDonk]

I confirmed I am getting about 6.4v via the resistance wire to the coil, and a full 12.3v at the voltage regulator via that green w red.

Either one is sufficient to trigger a relay.

I don’t have a (dual gauge??) to measure how much play there is in the shaft bearings.

Yes, dial gauge, or “indicator” it’s probably the more common term. Handy to have, but not necessary.

And without taking the dizzy out, does the shaft look like there is a lot of play?

No. Well, yes, of course it’s definitely showing signs of wear.
And while that would normally be enough play to justify a rebuild or replace, if keeping the motor, under the conditions you describe, I would certainly not hesitate to install a Pertronix module in that particular distributor.
And then get your new one for the new engine later.

 

[ntsqd]

The drive gears on most of the Big 3's distributors are held in place with a single roll pin. The holes for these pins, particularly on Ford dist's., tend to be a random location and rarely are they on center. In my messing about with these distributors I've never seen a gear from one align the pin hole correctly on a different shaft. I have had some that were close, but never an exact fit. My sample size isn't huge though, so maybe with a larger pool of parts I'd get better matches.

Which is to say that drilling a new gear in the correct spot is not as simple as it might seem.

My brain is fuzzy because in that era I worked on GM distributors too. As I recall one or both use an odd size for the shaft OD. I recall making replacement bushings for both, but don't recall any of the dimensions. I'm sure that there is or was a source for those bushings, but I never found it or them. Until I ran into that odd size issue I was thinking about converting a Ford distributor to sealed bearings, but wasn't happy with any of the solutions that I came up with to make the odd shaft size into a size where I could fit a bearing. Today I would suggest looking for one of the long discontinued Accel Dual Point distributors, specifically the Pro Stock racing version as there was a street version made from a different design. The racing version is easy to spot because it already uses ball and caged needle bearings. The street version uses bushings and was considerably less expensive.
Wow! talk about a stroll down memory lane..........

 

[bronco italiano]

If you are going to invest in a roller cam in the near future, it may be best to invest in your distributor. As stated before, send it to HIllside auto and have Wes Adams "go through your distributor and place a melonized gear in it. Wes sets up his units very precisely to fit properly in the block and designs a curve for our engine/use. He is very reasonable for the service/product you receive. Pertronix "drop in ignitors" are very reliable, but always have a spare in the glove box just in case. All this new stuff, outside of DUI (which Wes still had to massage the adv weights for smoother curve), is a roll of the dice.

 

[tonytony9]

Either one is sufficient to trigger a relay.

Yes, dial gauge, or “indicator” it’s probably the more common term. Handy to have, but not necessary.

No. Well, yes, of course it’s definitely showing signs of wear.
And while that would normally be enough play to justify a rebuild or replace, if keeping the motor, under the conditions you describe, I would certainly not hesitate to install a Pertronix module in that particular distributor.
And then get your new one for the new engine later.

The drive gears on most of the Big 3's distributors are held in place with a single roll pin. The holes for these pins, particularly on Ford dist's., tend to be a random location and rarely are they on center. In my messing about with these distributors I've never seen a gear from one align the pin hole correctly on a different shaft. I have had some that were close, but never an exact fit. My sample size isn't huge though, so maybe with a larger pool of parts I'd get better matches.

Which is to say that drilling a new gear in the correct spot is not as simple as it might seem.

My brain is fuzzy because in that era I worked on GM distributors too. As I recall one or both use an odd size for the shaft OD. I recall making replacement bushings for both, but don't recall any of the dimensions. I'm sure that there is or was a source for those bushings, but I never found it or them. Until I ran into that odd size issue I was thinking about converting a Ford distributor to sealed bearings, but wasn't happy with any of the solutions that I came up with to make the odd shaft size into a size where I could fit a bearing. Today I would suggest looking for one of the long discontinued Accel Dual Point distributors, specifically the Pro Stock racing version as there was a street version made from a different design. The racing version is easy to spot because it already uses ball and caged needle bearings. The street version uses bushings and was considerably less expensive.
Wow! talk about a stroll down memory lane..........

If you are going to invest in a roller cam in the near future, it may be best to invest in your distributor. As stated before, send it to HIllside auto and have Wes Adams "go through your distributor and place a melonized gear in it. Wes sets up his units very precisely to fit properly in the block and designs a curve for our engine/use. He is very reasonable for the service/product you receive. Pertronix "drop in ignitors" are very reliable, but always have a spare in the glove box just in case. All this new stuff, outside of DUI (which Wes still had to massage the adv weights for smoother curve), is a roll of the dice.

Thank you everyone. I will start with a Pertronix I or II and if still experiencing same issues, go for an entire Pertronix distributor. In the future, I will figure out how to get that dizzy gear changed out. @ntsqd I have seen exactly what you are referring to with the pins not lining perfectly.

 

[tonytony9]

Ended up buying the Pertronix II 91281 and a Flame Thrower II 45001. I am under the impression the Pertronix II needs 0.6 ohms. I assume my 12v external resistor coil is 1.5ohms. Need to check later this weekend; given it was for a breaker style points system and these are usually 1.5hms.

Out of curiosity, can the Pertronix II run without long term damage on the 1.5ohms coil?

Do I need to run a fuse off the voltage regulator before the coil or module? Can I splice my new wire here at the red arrow?

 

[bronco italiano]

Out of curiosity, can the Pertronix II run without long term damage on the 1.5ohms coil?

-Call Pertronix and hear it directly from one of their tech people.

 

[tonytony9]

Out of curiosity, can the Pertronix II run without long term damage on the 1.5ohms coil?

-Call Pertronix and hear it directly from one of their tech people.

This is the Hillside Auto you are referring to?

@DirtDonk Would it be acceptable to splice a 12g wire off the existing tinned black wire (from voltage regulator) / green w/ red? I was going to cut a new piece and solder the three wires together (green w/ red at voltage regulator, black wire from voltage regulator, and 12g wire running to positive term on Flame Thrower Coil). Then run the Pertronix off the pos. term on coil.

 

[Brush Hog]

Installed both igniter II and a full pertronix distributor think it was the igniter 3. Red wire to positive side of coil black to negative. Used coil they recommended. Says to bypass voltage regulator. Was a quick swap. Their instructions are pretty easy and all over the internet.

 

[Oldtimer]

Says to bypass voltage regulator.

Do you mean resistance wire (ballast resistor)?

 

[tonytony9]

Installed both igniter II and a full pertronix distributor think it was the igniter 3. Red wire to positive side of coil black to negative. Used coil they recommended. Says to bypass voltage regulator. Was a quick swap. Their instructions are pretty easy and all over the internet.

Do you mean resistance wire (ballast resistor)?

Yeah, I believe he is referring to resistance wire.

Am I able to go right off the voltage regulator if I am using Pertronix II & their Coil? Pertronix recommended that I buy their relay and using the resistance wire as my trigger. Take 12v right off the battery to the relay. Hook coil up to relay. Pertronix to coil.

Thats fine, but why would I need to modify my resistance wire (cut off the tail and extend to the relay) if I have identified the sources of the resistance wire (the terminal on the voltage regulator)? I am pretty positive that the source of the resistance wire is at the voltage regulator, and is only active in Key On, Crank and running. I am using the wiring diagram below, and I tested with my multi-meter.

 

[ntsqd]

My semi-educated guess is that Pertronix is trying to work within what they know is there and not send their customers off looking to find some other IGN source that may or may not be suitable.

As to the relay, there could be two reasons for suggesting it. Either their system can not work correctly on the reduced voltage, or their system needs more amps than the resistance wire can supply. Both of these reasons can be valid simultaneously.

 

[jamesroney]

Did not realize that a Pertronix was the choice. I was responding specifically to using an GM designed HEI distributor that has been modified to work in a Ford engine.

I would wire a Pertronix exactly how they say to do so. No idea what that might be.

Watch out with this one. Pertronix is famous for "compromised" instructions.

If Pertronix 1 had decent wiring solutions, including a mandatory +12V source for ignition...there would not be a need for Pertronix 2.

As to the relay and other EE nonsense...you are 100% correct in your assumptions, which makes your advice to "follow the Pertronix instructions" a bit of a disconnect.

Here's something else to chew on. The vast majority of 60's and 70's cars with tachometers are looking for the frequency signal on the ignition feed line. So any advice that tells you to use a relay defeats the tach. Any advice that tells you to delete the resistor wire requires a new coil. Any advice that tells you to use the g/r or r/g wire MIGHT not work with certain ign switches that don't stay hot in crank. And any advice that tells you to keep the factory resistor wire cannot provide adequate voltage for a high performance ignition.

So any advice you get from Pertronix will be a compromise at best. @bronco italiano said it well in post #12. I will paraphrase.

"If people knew how to properly wire a Pertronix 1 there wouldn't be a Pertronix 2."

And yes, MSD post acquisition is beyond salvation.

My advice is to do EXACTLY what someone else has done successfully in THEIR Bronco, or else engineer your own solution.

(notice that at no time do I recommend to follow the instructions from Pertronix...)

 

[ntsqd]

Based on what I have observed first-hand, starting in the 1980's, I never would advise Pertronix. But that ship has sailed.

My advice to follow Pertronix's instructions is driven by when the unit fails they have less reason to deny any warranty claim. Not if, when.

As I said early in this thread, faced with starting from nothing with no original Dura-Spark II donors available I would use a Dyno_Mod HEI module driven by a Dura-Spark II distributor (new or used, prefer used OEM) and an E-Core coil (GM or Ford). I have done this, but not on a Bronco. I used the GM coil and the Dyno-Mod module driven by the electronic ignition distributor native to that engine.
It is possible to convert the existing points distributor to a Dura-Spark II pick-up assembly. There's only a few good reasons to do this and many more to not do it, but it can be done.
The only RTR distributor that I'd remotely consider would be the DUI.

ETA: Bonus points for finding a remote TFI module's heat sink and using it to mount the HEI type module. HEI modules MUST be mounted on a heat sink of some sort and they MUST be mounted using the heat transfer 'grease' that come with them. No other 'grease' or anti-seize will work in this role. The only acceptable substitute is known as "Arctic Silver". The heat need not be something elaborate, I'd long term successfully used a section of structural aluminum angle.

 

[bronco italiano]

This is the Hillside Auto you are referring to?

View attachment 953084



@DirtDonk Would it be acceptable to splice a 12g wire off the existing tinned black wire (from voltage regulator) / green w/ red? I was going to cut a new piece and solder the three wires together (green w/ red at voltage regulator, black wire from voltage regulator, and 12g wire running to positive term on Flame Thrower Coil). Then run the Pertronix off the pos. term on coil.

Yes.

 

[Oldtimer]

Am I able to go right off the voltage regulator if I am using Pertronix II & their Coil?

NO

Pertronix recommended that I buy their relay and using the resistance wire as my trigger. Take 12v right off the battery to the relay. Hook coil up to relay. Pertronix to coil.

Thats fine, but why would I need to modify my resistance wire (cut off the tail and extend to the relay) if I have identified the sources of the resistance wire (the terminal on the voltage regulator)?

You haven't correctly identified source of resistance wire.

I am pretty positive that the source of the resistance wire is at the voltage regulator, and is only active in Key On, Crank and running. I am using the wiring diagram below, and I tested with my multi-meter.

Source of resistance wire is terminal "C" at ignition switch.

It is the pink wire (Ø16).
It is located behind dashboard.
It changes color at the bulkhead connector (C)

On engine side of bulhead connector (C) it becomes red with green stripe (16) and terminates at the red connector (B) for engine harness.


Also note that terminal "C" of ignition switch is source for green with red stripe wire (904).

This wire goes to bulkhead connector (D).

and continues on to voltage regulator.

It provides key on power to turn regulator on, so battery can be charged.

It does not have enough amperage to run an ignition system, it can trigger a relay.

NOTE: red w/green stripe and green w/red stripe are two different wires.