4 link, ORI's, narrowed D60w/only 2.5" lift, 5"+WB stretch, 2" floor lower, P/S....,

[ntsqd]

I would expect that Mass Air would yield a finer resolution of the air being ingested by the engine than can Speed Density. This may have more implications for emissions than it does for power. Mass Air seems to have long been the preference in the Ford World, but in pre LS days Speed Density was king in the GM world. I'm betting that this has changed now.

What I would be interested to know is if guys who trailer their OEM EFI systems to a significantly different altitude have those same kinds of issues. I suspect not, but I don't know that. I suspect that it's symptom of what are basically low end, fairly crude systems.

I am starting to think that such an ECU like the Haltech may be a necessity rather than a nice to have for this engine. I just used their ECU Guide with some guesses and ended up here:

HT-151376 Elite 2500 + V8 Small/Big Block GM, Ford & Chrysler Terminated Harness Kit - Haltech

HT-151376 Elite 2500 + V8 Small/Big Block GM, Ford & Chrysler Terminated Harness Kit.,,,Bosch EV1,. Outputs: Up to 8 injector and 8 ignition.. Suits:V8 GM Small/Big Block V8 Ford Small/Big Block Chrysler HEMI. Includes: Elite 2500 ECU with DBW and Race Functions, engine harness with fuse block...

www.haltech.com

Not inexpensive, but how much time and money has been spent diddling around already?
Right there about 1/3 down the page: "Load sensing by Throttle Position (TPS), Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) or Mass Air Flow (MAF)" so you can use whatever you want for that input. Maybe D/L there programming software to have a look at it and see if it is something that you can work with? https://www.haltech.com/downloads/

 

[ssray]

Interesting…I was just looking at their stuff last night but the 1500 something that had a setup for around 1500$. If I understood right though that was for wiring into or building your harness. It went up towards 2000$ for more ready made harness setups. The options in there were numerous, but I assume you only use what you need? I saw something about shock length input for all four shocks, something I can only assume is racing based. I didn’t realise Motec and Haltec were Aus based. Motec was hard to even find US info for, not sure that’s a good sign. Haltec seems to have a fair number of dealers listed. Two here in Omaha. Four I think in CO. Wichita KS and Oklahoma City and Tulsa. Like ProM I ran across info that seemed to encourage DIY. Did you get that feeling as well?

 

[nvrstuk]

I will go with whatever system that dials me in perfectly w/o having to be a "tuning specialist" and will have support 5, 10, 20 yrs (I'll be older than dirt then lol ) from now.

I think it's getting important that I move up "technology-wise" to the 21st century also. If I was stock or closer to stock like a 408 I might be able to go ProFlo and be happy but... I know that when I called Edelbrock last year about the whopping 6.25" of vacuum that I my 460 produced that their system would probably not be able to adapt to it and run properly. I know have 9+inches (posted earlier) so in theory. I went from 106 lsa to 114 lsa.

Lars and I have both talked about ProM and Haltech. My concern with Haltech is overseas, availability and the question I always refer to about aftermarket.... support. How long will they be around making the "same" product so if ANYthing pops up am I where I am now?? 2 months out??

This dilemma I am currently in is really making a difference for what I do with my Shorty build... KISS comes to mind.

 

[ssray]

KISS comes to mind.

Well it’s running “Hotter Than Hell” but “I Like It Loud” and “I Want To Rock And Roll“ “Forever”

Iconic band from way back ….sorry couldn’t resist.

ProM makes it sound easy for anyone, not sure Haltec pushes quite as hard. Wonder if Steve knows anyone at Toyspeed Motorsports in Tulsa. They are dealers for Haltec.

 

[ntsqd]

Both Haltech and Motec have been around and available in this country for decades already.

I'm sure that their product has evolved along with everything else and that at some point such a system could become obsolete. Just like Holley's original ProJection is.

 

[nvrstuk]

Well it’s running “Hotter Than Hell” but “I Like It Loud” and “I Want To Rock And Roll“ “Forever”

Iconic band from way back ….sorry couldn’t resist.

ProM makes it sound easy for anyone, not sure Haltec pushes quite as hard. Wonder if Steve knows anyone at Toyspeed Motorsports in Tulsa. They are dealers for Haltec.

Hahaha! I didn't think those were quotes from my posts!! lol

 

[36Fan]

The Holley (Terminator X,HP and Dominator ecu) will do what you need. It will be the user friendliest software and have the easiest and most available help online over anything else. Haltech has good support, great products but not nearly as common as Holley is these days. Motec, best you can buy and it comes at a hefty price. Its not everyday user friendly,the software is for the more advanced tuner and the licensing and a la carte items get expensive. You can make a Mega squirt system work but you will need to be more involved with the system than any other off the shelf stuff.

Holley SEFI whether it be from the Terminator X,HP and Dominator ecu platforms can work well. Holley' definition of "self learning" is not exactly the same for every user and people who dont understand this are the ones that have problems and cant figure it out. Its not a system you bolt on and it will take care if itself, you need to make adjustments to perfect it...and its not hard once you take some time to learn.

 

[nvrstuk]

Thanks 36Fan-
Have you tuned a Terminator setup? Asking because I need good accurate info and I don't know you're builds-no offense just trying to be 100% sure is all.

Just asking since anyway I go is a flipping huge downtime (again) and tearing my existing efi wiring apart and starting over... again! lol aaugh!

I really don't want this not running again for years but...


Have you operated a Terminator tuned engine with major elevation changes? This is really my only real concern?? Adaptability.

Thanks!!

 

[Yeller]

The guys I know running Motech on race cars love it, but they spend a lot of dyno time tuning they are running a v twin. the one guy running it on an LS has run very little dyno time. But it’s also on a sealed LS3 powered short coarse truck that the engine has a lot of history running Motech.

I’m a MAF fan. I don’t run O2’s and it runs flawless from sea level to 14,000 feet. When I ran MAP I never had an issue towing to altitude and it running properly, but I was running stock engines in those days.

 

[rcmbronc]

Biggest concern for me comparing SD and MA is elevation changes. I can drive from my house just taking my wife for a drive and see 7,00ft difference in elvation in 20-30 min.

I hear stories about guys trailering from sea level to Moab (only 4Kft) and having EFI "learning issues" for several days then it's good. I'm sure when they get home they go thru the same thing.

Is this still common??

If Holley Terminator didn't have this issue and were available I'd go this route... yesterday!!

Thoughts and experiences?? Appreciate it.

Interesting question. I would think the MAP would sense that and tune for it. Thats the only thing the engine sees anyways. Just kind of like boost but backwards. Holley has a great tech forum maybe go ask there.

 

[Yeller]

I believe MAF still needs a MAP to be able to distinguish load but I’m a Neanderthal, using all stock stuff with no efi tuning experience

 

[nvrstuk]

I have been accepted on a Holley Tuning site (last night). I will post up a question regarding this today.

Have a friend who ran the Rocky Mtn Race Week and said guys could run different tunes to adjust for elevation.

 

[nvrstuk]

The Holley (Terminator X,HP and Dominator ecu) will do what you need. It will be the user friendliest software and have the easiest and most available help online over anything else. Haltech has good support, great products but not nearly as common as Holley is these days. Motec, best you can buy and it comes at a hefty price. Its not everyday user friendly,the software is for the more advanced tuner and the licensing and a la carte items get expensive. You can make a Mega squirt system work but you will need to be more involved with the system than any other off the shelf stuff.

Holley SEFI whether it be from the Terminator X,HP and Dominator ecu platforms can work well. Holley' definition of "self learning" is not exactly the same for every user and people who dont understand this are the ones that have problems and cant figure it out. Its not a system you bolt on and it will take care if itself, you need to make adjustments to perfect it...and its not hard once you take some time to learn.

Holley tech doesn't give me accurate answers when talking to them. "Sales/promotional " answers is what I get. I'll call them again and ask specifically: will the engine run perfect when tuned at 1500' elevation AND still run exactly the same at 7k ft without having to tweak it at all?

 

[36Fan]

Holley tech is not the best for answers unfortunately. Short answer is no, it will not be the "exact" same but it can be close with a good tuner and proper install. Other than stock Ford oem ecu settings from the factory, even a MAF system wont be 100% exact in bog altitude changes. Aftermarket ecu's dont have the vast calibration tables etc that the stock stuff has. If you want the best MAF system out there then Motec is your choice, get ready for price shock. You can use a Haltech Maf but same thing, it will cost a lot for the end result but it will work good.

https://forums.holley.com/forum

You can get more info and way quicker responses than Holley tech line on the forum.

 

[DirtDonk]

I believe MAF still needs a MAP to be able to distinguish load…

The Ford MAF system uses BAP instead. The “barometric air pressure” sensor is actually the very same part as the MAP (manifold absolute pressure) but with a restrictor that keeps you from connecting a vacuum hose to it.

My first foray into SD was my ‘96 Chevy with the Vortec 5.7 engine.
You could not tell the difference between sea level and 7,000 feet.
I’m sure it must have been down a bit in top power level, but you could not tell during normal driving.
That was the first time I was ever able to experience something like that. It was amazing!

 

[Yeller]

The Ford MAF system uses BAP instead. The “barometric air pressure” sensor is actually the very same part as the MAP (manifold absolute pressure) but with a restrictor that keeps you from connecting a vacuum hose to it.

My first foray into SD was my ‘96 Chevy with the Vortec 5.7 engine.
You could not tell the difference between sea level and 7,000 feet.
I’m sure it must have been down a bit in top power level, but you could not tell during normal driving.
That was the first time I was ever able to experience something like that. It was amazing!

And why I’ve been using those systems since they arrived on the scene

 

[nvrstuk]

Holley tech is not the best for answers unfortunately. Short answer is no, it will not be the "exact" same but it can be close with a good tuner and proper install. Other than stock Ford oem ecu settings from the factory, even a MAF system wont be 100% exact in bog altitude changes. Aftermarket ecu's dont have the vast calibration tables etc that the stock stuff has. If you want the best MAF system out there then Motec is your choice, get ready for price shock. You can use a Haltech Maf but same thing, it will cost a lot for the end result but it will work good.

https://forums.holley.com/forum

You can get more info and way quicker responses than Holley tech line on the forum.

Thanks!! The ProM ecu is from a 2020 Mustang, programmed by original programmers for the application I am using it on. 30yr newer electronics, programmed by Ford programmers, mass air, from a company that's been doing this for 30+ yrs is encouraging.

I want it to run almost perfect at any elevation and not have to tweak or adjust it when I leave my house, drive 40 min to 7,000ft elevation and then tune it again when I get home. This is exactly what I don't want. Guys that live in LA and go to Moab 2X/yr are in a different situation than me as I can be going from my elevation down into the Valley then to 7K ft every week for a couple months then 1X/month year round.

What a hassle that would be.

 

[jmhend]

I forgot to post my gas pump posts!!!

WOW! $5.04 per gallon.

 

[nvrstuk]

And why I’ve been using those systems since they arrived on the scene

I will soon with Shorty...maybe!! Qjet is looking better every day.
Especially now.

My horror of running EFI, and why I didn't run it for 20 yrs after my Holley ProJection days was what if I couldn't "fix" the problem? I'd be stranded... and that is EXACTLY what's happened to me this month.

 

[nvrstuk]

So s 3hr 18min phone call last night trying to get Binary Editor to work... nope. Thanks again Tim!

2hr and 16 min call this afternoon with my new tuner who spent a bunch of time and found that some Microsoft software didn't load properly for my computer and never affected anything else but BE. So we downloaded that and got my new tune he had for me uploaded to the qrthorse.

Water is perfect and so are temps so living life and going for a ski instead of working in the shop. Slow learner on priorities...

He showed me some parabolic curves that show fuel usage during datalogs and what the "bog" that I'm experiencing around 4400rpm might be showing up in this graphic curve on the datalog. Pretty cool...

Will know more later.

Also spent an hour discussing pro's and con's of SD and MassAir.

All in all my head is about to explode.