Front End Alignment

[DirtDonk]

Paul, I've read a couple of your posts on various thread about wearing out tires due to age versus tread wearing out - could you comment a bit more on what the observable issues if the inside of the tire is worn out? i.e. is the result of old age is that the sidewalls get weak, and that then translates into tire flex which then results in squirreling driving most noticeable at higher speeds on the freeway.

Generally speaking tires as old as yours will start to handle noticeably worse as time goes by. Literally nothing to do with visible tread wear, just old age and wearing out internally.

I’ve never personally experienced it causing a tire to wear unevenly, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be a possible contributor.
Wearing out on the inside (is it a front tire or rear?) usually means something with alignment.

It's not something I've heard about before on tires and googling around a bit couldn't find anything.

(I'm working through dialing in the freeway driving habits on my rig like the OP, doing the chalk wearing stuff, pressures, etc). My tires are from 2004, but have virtually perfect tread so not super excited about spending 2k on tires unless I can convince myself it's it.

I hear you on the cost of new tires! Very soon I’m going to need three new sets!
I suppose it’s lucky that my sister-in-law wrecked my Buick otherwise it would be for tires. Thank goodness for small favors.
Very small! :-(

In my experience though, I would never run a tire that old even on a bronco.
Even with less precise handling of a bronco over say a modern truck or a passenger car, you should still be able to feel the difference between 18 year old tires and brand new ones.

 

[broncosam]

Here are the pics I just took of the front end components, if there is something else you want to see let me know and I'll get a picture of it. I sure do appreciate everyone's help with this I've been racking my mind trying to figure this out. Of all the lifted 4x4 vehicles I've had in the last 45 years, I've never had this much trouble getting one to align up.

 

[broncosam]

Paul the date code of the tires is 1017 and according to how General tires says to read that they were made in the 10th week of 2017. The tires have a lot of tread left and I can see no dry rot or anything wrong with them, all 4 have the same date code. As for the trac bar drop bracket it came from James Duff part number 4505 and in the instructions it said to bolt and weld it to the factory bracket. The drop pitman arm came from Jeff's part number 12838.

 

[toddz69]

Things look good from the pictures but as Lars and Shimmy noted, we really need to see the alignment numbers. Once we see those, we can start analyzing what the problems might be.

Todd Z.

 

[DirtDonk]

The tires themselves should be good then. At only five years and low mileage they’re not yet into that aged-out category.

 

[broncosam]

As I said earlier I really appreciate all the help. I'm hoping when I call the alignment shop in the morning I'll be able to find out something on the alignment numbers. I will be sure to post them and anything else I find out when I make the call. Their policy is 6 months or 60,000 miles on an alignment but no alignment warranty on suspension altered vehicles whether lifted or lowered. I'm hoping they don't give me a run-around about that.

 

[Yeller]

Paul, I've read a couple of your posts on various thread about wearing out tires due to age versus tread wearing out - could you comment a bit more on what the observable issues would be if the inside of the tire is worn out? i.e. is the result of old age is that the sidewalls get weak, and that then translates into tire flex which then results in squirreling driving most noticeable at higher speeds on the freeway.

It's not something I've heard about before on tires and googling around a bit couldn't find anything.

(I'm working through dialing in the freeway driving habits on my rig like the OP, doing the chalk wearing stuff, pressures, etc). My tires are from 2004, but have virtually perfect tread so not super excited about spending 2k on tires unless I can convince myself it's it.

Recommended replacement is 6 years by most, some say 10 years. I’m in the 5-6 year camp myself. 18 year old tires are dangerous at freeway speeds, ever seen what happens with a tire separates? Replace the trailer body panels with your Bronco…..

Tire age replacement

OP as stated pics look good, can’t be of much help without a printout of alignment specs.

 

[sprdv1]

As I said earlier I really appreciate all the help. I'm hoping when I call the alignment shop in the morning I'll be able to find out something on the alignment numbers. I will be sure to post them and anything else I find out when I make the call. Their policy is 6 months or 60,000 miles on an alignment but no alignment warranty on suspension altered vehicles whether lifted or lowered. I'm hoping they don't give me a run-around about that.

good luck.. depends on the shop you pick right

 

[sprdv1]

The tires themselves should be good then. At only five years and low mileage they’re not yet into that aged-out category.

yeah, some will last a long time, but some you got to keep an eye on for sure

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, I will take a wild shot in the dark but this is something you can check out. If the adjustment sleeves in the upper ball joints are too tight the steering knuckles will bind. You can check this by removing the tie rods from the steering knuckles and see if they move freely or bind up. Good luck

 

[broncosam]

B RON CO, thanks for that bit of info. While I had everything torn apart and on jack stands I could feel nothing binding up in the steering knuckles. That is good to know . But I just did get off the phone with the shop that did the alignment, they told me to bring it back in tomorrow morning and one of the alignment techs will drive it while I ride with him. Hopefully we can get this thing straightened out. I will be sure to post whatever I find out.

 

[lars]

B RON CO, thanks for that bit of info. While I had everything torn apart and on jack stands I could feel nothing binding up in the steering knuckles. That is good to know . But I just did get off the phone with the shop that did the alignment, they told me to bring it back in tomorrow morning and one of the alignment techs will drive it while I ride with him. Hopefully we can get this thing straightened out. I will be sure to post whatever I find out.

Again, they have to have the alignment numbers somewhere. I've never heard of a shop that doesn't have some sort of written record. All else being in good shape, caster, or lack of caster, is typically the main culprit for wandering. We can speculate all we want about whether it's an issue here based on what C bushings and radius arms are in use, but we still don't know. It's such a simple thing to measure on an alignment rack. If they don't have the numbers anymore, my recommendation is to have them measure it again. Otherwise the story starts sounding like the parable of the blind men and an elephant.

 

[broncosam]

Hey Guys just got home from taking my Bronco back to the alignment shop this morning. It drives 110% better. The culprit was in the steering box and pitman arm. The video I tried to post showed what looked to be the pitman arm moving on the shaft of the box. When I installed the drop pitman arm Ford spec called for up to 250 ft. lbs. of torque if I remember correctly. I a nutshell what the tech found was something in the pitman arm I purchased from JBG wasn't right. He said it was either in the hole and the splines or it was just a bit thinner than the factory arm. He said the nut was bottoming out on the threads before the arm was completely up to torque. He pulled the arm off and put a flat washer in between the lock washer and the pitman arm. Like I said it drives one whole helluva lot better than it did. I don't know if anyone else has ever run into the same thing with a steering box and pitman arm or not, just wondering? I sure do appreciate everyone's help with this, thanks a bunch.

 

[toddz69]

Hey Guys just got home from taking my Bronco back to the alignment shop this morning. It drives 110% better. The culprit was in the steering box and pitman arm. The video I tried to post showed what looked to be the pitman arm moving on the shaft of the box. When I installed the drop pitman arm Ford spec called for up to 250 ft. lbs. of torque if I remember correctly. I a nutshell what the tech found was something in the pitman arm I purchased from JBG wasn't right. He said it was either in the hole and the splines or it was just a bit thinner than the factory arm. He said the nut was bottoming out on the threads before the arm was completely up to torque. He pulled the arm off and put a flat washer in between the lock washer and the pitman arm. Like I said it drives one whole helluva lot better than it did. I don't know if anyone else has ever run into the same thing with a steering box and pitman arm or not, just wondering? I sure do appreciate everyone's help with this, thanks a bunch.

I've had that happen on a truck or two in the past too. Glad you were able to get it fixed with such a simple item.

Todd Z.

 

[broncosam]

Out of all the lifted 4x4's in my time, this is a first for me. But I'm glad it is fixed, I can't get over how much better it drives. But out of curiosity, in the picture I posted this morning of the repair to the pitman arm, it looks like there is a piece of plate steel approximately 3/16 inch thick between the steering box and the frame, is that factory original. Of the couple of early Broncos I've had in the past I don't recall seeing anything like that. Thanks to all who offered help and advice.

 

[lars]

BC Broncos used to sell a plate like that to reinforce the frame because that area is subject to cracking. Maybe other vendors as well and plenty of us made our own. Bet it’s something like that.

And congratulations on finding the root cause. Nice when you can point to something and know definitively that it was the problem.

 

[ksagis]

250 ft-lbs seems like a lot for the pitman arm torque, does that sound right to folks

OP, thanks for this tip, might source of issue for others. I assume there wasn't any observable gap between the side of the nut and the pitman arm shoulder, is that right?

Paul, thanks for the tip on my thread on checking the steering box is centered when the wheels are centered, that would be a somewhat non-obvious one too.

 

[broncosam]

250 ft-lbs seems like a lot for the pitman arm torque, does that sound right to folks

OP, thanks for this tip, might source of issue for others. I assume there wasn't any observable gap between the side of the nut and the pitman arm shoulder, is that right?

Paul, thanks for the tip on my thread on checking the steering box is centered when the wheels are centered, that would be a somewhat non-obvious one too.

Mistake on my part I meant to type 150 not 250 on the torque of the pitman arm to the steering box shaft.

 

[CopperBronco]

Mistake on my part I meant to type 150 not 250 on the torque of the pitman arm to the steering box shaft.

Having same problem on my Bronco, similar updates with all new parts, you all are giving me ideas. BTW, Chiltons says Pitman arm nut to steering box is 170-230ft/lbs… is there a reason this site all says it’s around 150? I swapped my pitman arm and torqued to 200 ft/lbs. Did I do it wrong?

 

[CopperBronco]

Can I hijack this thread? My Bronco has steering wheel vibration/slight shimmy at 50+mph. On a brand new smooth road it feels pretty smooth though, but almost any other road it’s got a shimmy at 50+mph… I’m running front tires at 25psi, and rear at 30psi…. Been talking with DirtDonk, my Bronco is a 66ish, new 2.5” lift, 33”x11”x15” BFG tires, disc brakes, 7 degree C bushings, new radius arm bushings, Duff’s dual sport Heim steer (TRU), with stabilizer, new pitman arm, new trac bar as well. I got a baseline alignment numbers before I started the job and everything was a hot mess, Toms told me I needed 7 degree C-bushings to get to positive caster… Bronco drives a TON better than it did… I tried to follow Duffs written and video instructions to great detail. Photos are attached or steering geometry and install… along with alignment numbers, sounding like I need 4 degree caster maybe… the 2.6 caster I was told might settle after driving some and hit the 3 range, haven’t gone back yet to check.

Alignment numbers in photo below, I’m around 3 degrees positive caster, would need drop down radius arm brackets most likely to go further as my Bronco has stock frame brackets.
My pinion angle is 2 degrees
I have spacers on too to clear disc brakes, tire guys said spacers can be tricky.
Had tires force balanced and was told they are good, only a year old.
Front axle is 3/8” off center to passenger side (alignment tech extended my trac bar to get right thrust angle with rear end is what he said ). I had it centered for a hot minute right after install.
Middle of front tire to rear of front tire is 92” on both sides
When front end lifted, steering wheel can move around 1.5” before tires move, is this excessive play? Can post a video if you’d like….
My trac bar and drag link are not perfectly parallel due to Duffs lifted saddle design on the tie rod… it makes it same height as trac bar axle mount/bolt…I would need a trac bar riser bracket.

All this to say I’m looking for ideas of how to smooth out ar higher speeds, or am I good to go and just so new that I’m being hyper sensitive?