Front End Alignment

[broncosam]

Took my Bronco in the other day to get the front end aligned. Got it back this morning they had to replace a camber bushing on the right/passenger side. It drives better than it did but on an un-even road it is still a little bit of an endeavor to keep it in a straight line. All the suspension components are new, 3.5 inch lift, drop pitman arm, trac bar drop bracket, Duff T-rex arms, Bilstein shocks, new steering stabilizer, all new bushings in the front with 7 degree axle bushings. When I was driving it home there were a couple of places where I know the road is good and flat, I turned loose of the steering wheel and it ran as straight a line that you could ask for. But get on an un-even road it gets squirrely. Is that the nature of the beast with the short wheel base and narrow stance? The shop that did the work is very reputable in this area, I have been taking my 4x4 vehicles to them since the late 70's and never had an issue. Can anyone offer any suggestions?

 

[DirtDonk]

Did they happen to give you an actual read out of what your settings are?
I’m wondering what kind of a bushing they replaced, since these did not come with camber bushings from the factory. It means that someone installed one previously, or your shop actually knows about them and installed one for you.
It’s unusual to find a shop that knows how to work on these old trucks, so Good for them.
But hopefully they gave you a full print out or you’re kind of shooting in the dark.
And toe in settings are a can of worms because you’ve changed tire sizes and wheel offsets.
You may need to experiment with toe in your self.
What kind of a steering set up do you have?
What size tires?
What toe-in setting did they use?

 

[kat]

Does it have sway bars? After installing my extended radius arms I am having alot of body roll and jumping around on rutted highways. But I think the T Rex arms aren't as long and maybe don't cause this.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, as mentioned, you should have asked for a printout of the numbers. That comes up here all the time. Anyway, what tire pressure are you running? Many guys run over 30 PSI. Try a lower pressure, Maybe 25- 28. Good luck

 

[broncosam]

Did not get a print out on the alignment settings. As for the bushing it, went in on the right side upper ball joint. I did some on-line research and Duff's has them in different degrees. Other than the drop pitman arm and trac bar drop bracket my steering is all stock. Tires are 10.50 x 33. No sway bars.

 

[broncosam]

Tire pressure was low, at about 20 lbs. I put some air in it up to about 26 lbs. The boss needed to go to the bank so I took her in the Bronco, driving it was an ordeal, it's real hard to keep it in a straight line. On an un-even road it's bit scary. I'm going to call the alignment shop Monday morning and talk to them about it.

 

[DirtDonk]

Since it was so recently done, maybe the technician remembers the readings. Worth a quick re-visit to them to see. With any luck maybe their machine has a memory and they can go back and retrieve the settings.
Maybe not, but certainly worth a quick visit. You really need to know that stuff or you're just starting from scratch.

Modern toe-in settings are based on degrees rather than the old standard of inches (or more accurately, fractions of an inch) and that changes with larger diameter tires. You might check with them also to see if they use degrees or inches.
A rating made for stock 27-28 inch tires using degrees might not be optimal for 33 inch tires.
And in fact, every Bronco is a little different in what it likes, based on tire and wheel combination.

Speaking of tires... are yours older or new?
Since putting more air in made it worse it sounds like, you are definitely on the right track.

Just some other things that can make a truck like a Bronco wander and feel skitish:

1. Loose wheel bearings.
2. Loose trackbar mounts and/or bushings.
3. Cracked frame under the steering box (invisible except during testing).
4. Tires that are "old" rather than worn out. If your tires are more than six or seven years old, they could fit easily into this category.
5. Loose rear components. Check u-bolts and spring bushings.
Things we've discussed already, but deserve re-mentioning:
6. Tire pressures front and back.
7. Toe-in (possibly near the top of the list)
8. Cross-camber and Cross-caster. Lower on the list from what it sounds like, but part of the system.
9. Forget what it's called, but when the front tires/axle are out of line with the rear tires/axle.

Before you take it back in to have them check or mess with stuff, do the test where you have a helper turn the steering wheel back and forth while you watch every bit and piece of the suspension and steering.
The full weight of the vehicle should be on the ground, and the helper only needs to turn the wheel about a half-turn in each direction to really see what's going on.
Any movement at all that does not equal movement of the next component is too much. No looseness is allowed in the steering or suspension components regarding wear.

But definitely answer the question about the age of the tires. If you're not sure, look at the date codes on the sidewall.

Paul

 

[broncosam]

Thanks Paul, tires are in real good condition a lot of tread left on them. I'll check the date codes on them but when I bought the Bronco in the spring of last year they looked practically new. I'll check some of stuff you mentioned, though. I checked a lot of the front end components myself the way I was taught before I tore it apart to install the new springs, shocks, and T-Rex arms, etc. Everything felt tight. I could find no play in the ball joints and I could not find anything unusual with the wheel bearings. When I first got everything back together I took it for a short drive and when I got back I checked the torque on all the bolts pertaining to the rear suspension and everything up front. All the steering linkage looked and felt good too. What bothers me the most is that if by chance the alignment did find something questionable with the steering components why didn't they call me to let me know, they always have in the past.

 

[Shimmy]

the first thing i'd do is go back and request a read out of my alignment. I'd be interested to see what the cross caster/camber is. I'm a little surprised the shop didn't share this with you.

 

[DirtDonk]

Thanks Paul, tires are in real good condition a lot of tread left on them. I'll check the date codes on them but when I bought the Bronco in the spring of last year they looked practically new.

That's good. But how they look means zip. It's the age that matters.
It's been a very long time since I wore out a tire with mileage and tread wear. They never make it that far before they're more and more annoying on the road from simple old age.
In fact, even with just one off-road trip or a quick curbing on the street can ruin a tire or multiple tires. You might never notice the issues off-roading, but once back out on the highway it's all over the place.
Normal wear and tear plus aging internally is what kills all of my tires. Truck and car tires, same thing.
My last car tires had probably 50% tread left on them and were completely useless.

I checked a lot of the front end components myself the way I was taught before I tore it apart to install the new springs, shocks, and T-Rex arms, etc. Everything felt tight. I could find no play in the ball joints and I could not find anything unusual with the wheel bearings.

That's good. Better than most of us in fact! I know that stuff but still catch myself not checking everything beforehand.
But the test I described is way better than a prybar and visual in most cases. A ball-joint will show up with the old tests, but you'd be shocked at how much movement you can get out of a perfectly tight trackbar when performing the test I described.
Doing the test will at least show you that you did your other tests correctly and everything is indeed perfect. But if it highlights even one loose component that was missed the first time, so much the better.

What bothers me the most is that if by chance the alignment did find something questionable with the steering components why didn't they call me to let me know, they always have in the past.

Well, they may not even have tested. But if they did they probably used the same methods you learned in the past.
More likely though, even your good shop probably does not test for all that stuff on the old vehicles any longer. They know from experience that once they find something on an old truck, the owners usually do not want them to perform the work for the labor rate they require. After all the work you just did yourself, are you going to pay them $700 to replace ball joints? Or $400 to adjust the wheel bearings? Or $250 to replace the trackbar bushings?
Probably not...

And they know that, so likely did not both to test anything that did not already look worn. And since most of your stuff is brand new and even the old stuff looks in good shape, there was simply no call for them to dig deeper.
I still say they're probably a good shop. Just not all that happy about digging deeper into a 50 year old utility vehicle.

Paul

 

[broncosam]

Yes they have always done very good work for me every time I took something to them but it still puzzles me why it drives the way it does. When they called to tell me it was ready they told me the alignment tech was out test driving it then and after his test drive they said it was good to go.

 

[lars]

Simply put, without knowing the actual alignment values as measured by the shop, all anyone can do is guess as to why it wanders. It’s probably not any one thing but the numbers would go a long way towards narrowing down what is going on. I would advise getting them then posting them here.

 

[lars]

Also I just installed 1.5° caster/camber sleeves last week in mine to kill the 1.5° positive camber that resulted when I installed new knuckles and ball joints (topic for another thread). I’d had camber sleeves for years for that reason but when I went to do the swap I discovered one sleeve was broken so I put in the non eccentric sleeves that came with the upper ball joints. The resulting positive camber did not please me aesthetically. But having driven it with 1.5° of positive camber and now zero, I can say that I can’t tell the difference. I’ve done a lot of other mods, some easy and some a huge PITA to improve handling though.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, 20 psi may be good. What size tire are you running anyway? And what size rims? Post a picture of the tire with the tire print for more info on that. You should have load range B. The alignment shop should have done tire pressure before the alignment. Good luck

 

[TX-ZACH]

Thanks for this discussion. I have some serious toe in but she drives straight as an arrow. Very hesitant to mess with it and will let her just eat tires. Nothing is ever easy.

 

[broncosam]

Hi, 20 psi may be good. What size tire are you running anyway? And what size rims? Post a picture of the tire with the tire print for more info on that. You should have load range B. The alignment shop should have done tire pressure before the alignment. Good luck

Tires are 10.50x33x15 general Grabbers on 7-8 inch wide factory Ford aluminum wheels

 

[broncosam]

Just came in from the garage, checked all the bolts front and rear, anything to do with suspension. Everything was tight and still torqued to spec. I checked and re-checked a lot of stuff, measured and checked to see if the front axle was centered. I can see where the alignment shop changed out the camber bushing on the right side upper ball joint, but it does not look like any adjustments were done to the adjustment sleeve on the tie rods. Those parts were cleaned and painted while everything was apart and they still look freshly painted. I did take a video of the steering box and pitman while the steering wheel was being moved back and forth, in the video you can see a slight movement in the shaft that the pitman arm is bolted to. That may be the culprit, I don't know. The only other thing that can think of is the T-Rex arms and the C bushings I installed. I put a set of 3.5 inch lift springs in the front. The T-Rex arms have 4.25 degrees of caster built into them. The instructions that came with the arms say that you can get by with lesser degree C bushings and the arms. It says with a 2.5 inch lift you may be able to get by with either 2 or 4 degree bushings. With my 3.5 inch springs I put 7 degree C bushings in. I'm guessing here if that is a problem or not.
You guys that are running T-Rex arms with 3.5 inch lift springs, what degree C bushings did you install.
I've checked everything I know to check, I'm going to call the alignment shop first thing in the morning and talk to them about it.

 

[Shimmy]

The only other thing that can think of is the T-Rex arms and the C bushings I installed. I put a set of 3.5 inch lift springs in the front. The T-Rex arms have 4.25 degrees of caster built into them. The instructions that came with the arms say that you can get by with lesser degree C bushings and the arms. It says with a 2.5 inch lift you may be able to get by with either 2 or 4 degree bushings. With my 3.5 inch springs I put 7 degree C bushings in. I'm guessing here if that is a problem or not.
You guys that are running T-Rex arms with 3.5 inch lift springs, what degree C bushings did you install.
I've checked everything I know to check, I'm going to call the alignment shop first thing in the morning and talk to them about it.

you need your alignment specs. since you mentioned your bronco tracks straight then i'd guess your caster is higher than 4* and you definitely want it up there. if you aren't up for a cut and turn just yet, i'd leave the 7* in there. 3.5" of lift is at that "be prepared to do a lot more suspension work" than a 2" lift. 2.5" folks seem to be able to get away with off the shelf kits. FWIW, im running a 3.5" lift with duff long arms and 7* bushings. my caster is 6* and i wouldn't go any lower on that spec

uneven roads and squirrelly make me think it's a tie rod and steering angle thing. post up a better pic of your steering and tb

 

[broncosam]

And can you post the video you took ?

Been trying I cannot get it to post.But I'll go out and take some pictures of the steering linkage and trac bar. Don't have the front driveshaft in it at this time so I'm not worried about that angle just yet.

 

[ksagis]

Paul, I've read a couple of your posts on various thread about wearing out tires due to age versus tread wearing out - could you comment a bit more on what the observable issues would be if the inside of the tire is worn out? i.e. is the result of old age is that the sidewalls get weak, and that then translates into tire flex which then results in squirreling driving most noticeable at higher speeds on the freeway.

It's not something I've heard about before on tires and googling around a bit couldn't find anything.

(I'm working through dialing in the freeway driving habits on my rig like the OP, doing the chalk wearing stuff, pressures, etc). My tires are from 2004, but have virtually perfect tread so not super excited about spending 2k on tires unless I can convince myself it's it.