Front End Alignment

[broncosam]

Having same problem on my Bronco, similar updates with all new parts, you all are giving me ideas. BTW, Chiltons says Pitman arm nut to steering box is 170-230ft/lbs… is there a reason this site all says it’s around 150? I swapped my pitman arm and torqued to 200 ft/lbs. Did I do it wrong?

I got a bit confused myself on this , I have a Haynes manual that says to torque the pitman arm the same 170-230, but my 1973 Ford shop manual says 150 ft.lbs. of torque.

 

[Rustytruck]

Can I hijack this thread? My Bronco has steering wheel vibration/slight shimmy at 50+mph. On a brand new smooth road it feels pretty smooth though, but almost any other road it’s got a shimmy at 50+mph… I’m running front tires at 25psi, and rear at 30psi…. Been talking with DirtDonk, my Bronco is a 66ish, new 2.5” lift, 33”x11”x15” BFG tires, disc brakes, 7 degree C bushings, new radius arm bushings, Duff’s dual sport Heim steer (TRU), with stabilizer, new pitman arm, new trac bar as well. I got a baseline alignment numbers before I started the job and everything was a hot mess, Toms told me I needed 7 degree C-bushings to get to positive caster… Bronco drives a TON better than it did… I tried to follow Duffs written and video instructions to great detail. Photos are attached or steering geometry and install… along with alignment numbers, sounding like I need 4 degree caster maybe… the 2.6 caster I was told might settle after driving some and hit the 3 range, haven’t gone back yet to check.

Alignment numbers in photo below, I’m around 3 degrees positive caster, would need drop down radius arm brackets most likely to go further as my Bronco has stock frame brackets.
My pinion angle is 2 degrees
I have spacers on too to clear disc brakes, tire guys said spacers can be tricky.
Had tires force balanced and was told they are good, only a year old.
Front axle is 3/8” off center to passenger side (alignment tech extended my trac bar to get right thrust angle with rear end is what he said ). I had it centered for a hot minute right after install.
Middle of front tire to rear of front tire is 92” on both sides
When front end lifted, steering wheel can move around 1.5” before tires move, is this excessive play? Can post a video if you’d like….
My trac bar and drag link are not perfectly parallel due to Duffs lifted saddle design on the tie rod… it makes it same height as trac bar axle mount/bolt…I would need a trac bar riser bracket.

All this to say I’m looking for ideas of how to smooth out ar higher speeds, or am I good to go and just so new that I’m being hyper sensitive?

jack up your front end just enough to get a long pry bar / tire iron under the tire and lift up and down looking for looseness in the ball joints or wheel bearings. if you find nothing start swapping tires front to rear to see if the problem follows the tires.

 

[toddz69]

Can I hijack this thread? My Bronco has steering wheel vibration/slight shimmy at 50+mph. On a brand new smooth road it feels pretty smooth though, but almost any other road it’s got a shimmy at 50+mph… I’m running front tires at 25psi, and rear at 30psi…. Been talking with DirtDonk, my Bronco is a 66ish, new 2.5” lift, 33”x11”x15” BFG tires, disc brakes, 7 degree C bushings, new radius arm bushings, Duff’s dual sport Heim steer (TRU), with stabilizer, new pitman arm, new trac bar as well. I got a baseline alignment numbers before I started the job and everything was a hot mess, Toms told me I needed 7 degree C-bushings to get to positive caster… Bronco drives a TON better than it did… I tried to follow Duffs written and video instructions to great detail. Photos are attached or steering geometry and install… along with alignment numbers, sounding like I need 4 degree caster maybe… the 2.6 caster I was told might settle after driving some and hit the 3 range, haven’t gone back yet to check.

Alignment numbers in photo below, I’m around 3 degrees positive caster, would need drop down radius arm brackets most likely to go further as my Bronco has stock frame brackets.
My pinion angle is 2 degrees
I have spacers on too to clear disc brakes, tire guys said spacers can be tricky.
Had tires force balanced and was told they are good, only a year old.
Front axle is 3/8” off center to passenger side (alignment tech extended my trac bar to get right thrust angle with rear end is what he said ). I had it centered for a hot minute right after install.
Middle of front tire to rear of front tire is 92” on both sides
When front end lifted, steering wheel can move around 1.5” before tires move, is this excessive play? Can post a video if you’d like….
My trac bar and drag link are not perfectly parallel due to Duffs lifted saddle design on the tie rod… it makes it same height as trac bar axle mount/bolt…I would need a trac bar riser bracket.

All this to say I’m looking for ideas of how to smooth out ar higher speeds, or am I good to go and just so new that I’m being hyper sensitive?

I doubt either of these items are causing the symptoms you're experiencing but I see two things I'd fix. First - on the tie rod end of the drag link, it appears your heim joint is binding/close to finding at ride height. As the suspension cycles, that heim body is probably making contact with the inside face of the saddle. Can you rotate the tie rod up slightly to help alleviate that potential binding? And on the other end of the drag link, your heim appears to be maxed out in terms of misalignment at resting ride height. There's a possibility of binding too depending on how much your suspension droops. I'd re-align that joint so the body is more horizontally aligned on the ball at ride height.

Todd Z.

 

[lars]

Can I hijack this thread? My Bronco has steering wheel vibration/slight shimmy at 50+mph. On a brand new smooth road it feels pretty smooth though, but almost any other road it’s got a shimmy at 50+mph… I’m running front tires at 25psi, and rear at 30psi…. Been talking with DirtDonk, my Bronco is a 66ish, new 2.5” lift, 33”x11”x15” BFG tires, disc brakes, 7 degree C bushings, new radius arm bushings, Duff’s dual sport Heim steer (TRU), with stabilizer, new pitman arm, new trac bar as well. I got a baseline alignment numbers before I started the job and everything was a hot mess, Toms told me I needed 7 degree C-bushings to get to positive caster… Bronco drives a TON better than it did… I tried to follow Duffs written and video instructions to great detail. Photos are attached or steering geometry and install… along with alignment numbers, sounding like I need 4 degree caster maybe… the 2.6 caster I was told might settle after driving some and hit the 3 range, haven’t gone back yet to check.

Alignment numbers in photo below, I’m around 3 degrees positive caster, would need drop down radius arm brackets most likely to go further as my Bronco has stock frame brackets.
My pinion angle is 2 degrees
I have spacers on too to clear disc brakes, tire guys said spacers can be tricky.
Had tires force balanced and was told they are good, only a year old.
Front axle is 3/8” off center to passenger side (alignment tech extended my trac bar to get right thrust angle with rear end is what he said ). I had it centered for a hot minute right after install.
Middle of front tire to rear of front tire is 92” on both sides
When front end lifted, steering wheel can move around 1.5” before tires move, is this excessive play? Can post a video if you’d like….
My trac bar and drag link are not perfectly parallel due to Duffs lifted saddle design on the tie rod… it makes it same height as trac bar axle mount/bolt…I would need a trac bar riser bracket.

All this to say I’m looking for ideas of how to smooth out ar higher speeds, or am I good to go and just so new that I’m being hyper sensitive?

Before I launch into yet another diatribe about how all Broncos need more caster, how Dana's quality control during the years early Broncos were in production, and how best to achieve more caster, a question: you wrote that your pinion angle is 2 degrees. Relative to what- the driveshaft? The ground? A photo taken from the side would be helpful.

 

[CopperBronco]

I doubt either of these items are causing the symptoms you're experiencing but I see two things I'd fix. First - on the tie rod end of the drag link, it appears your heim joint is binding/close to finding at ride height. As the suspension cycles, that heim body is probably making contact with the inside face of the saddle. Can you rotate the tie rod up slightly to help alleviate that potential binding? And on the other end of the drag link, your heim appears to be maxed out in terms of misalignment at resting ride height. There's a possibility of binding too depending on how much your suspension droops. I'd re-align that joint so the body is more horizontally aligned on the ball at ride height.

Todd Z.

Got it… that’s odd, Duff instruction videos say to lock out your Heims at opposite angles, so I did that intentionally, it’s to prevent the lock nuts from wanting to come loose while driving… you’re saying to center the Heims and tighten down lock nuts and see if it helps, correct?

 

[CopperBronco]

I got a bit confused myself on this , I have a Haynes manual that says to torque the pitman arm the same 170-230, but my 1973 Ford shop manual says 150 ft.lbs. of torque.

The question then is can overtightening cause excessive steering wheel vibration.

 

[CopperBronco]

Before I launch into yet another diatribe about how all Broncos need more caster, how Dana's quality control during the years early Broncos were in production, and how best to achieve more caster, a question: you wrote that your pinion angle is 2 degrees. Relative to what- the driveshaft? The ground? A photo taken from the side would be helpful.

My pinion angle is measured correctly per the tech article on here I hope , I used a protractor to get angle off face of diff yoke, and then angle of driveshaft to the ground and then did the subtraction… I want to say driveshaft was 19.25 degrees, and face of yoke was right at 69… subtract 90-69 you get 21 degrees, minus 19, equals 2 degrees, did I do it right?

 

[CopperBronco]

Before I launch into yet another diatribe about how all Broncos need more caster, how Dana's quality control during the years early Broncos were in production, and how best to achieve more caster, a question: you wrote that your pinion angle is 2 degrees. Relative to what- the driveshaft? The ground? A photo taken from the side would be helpful.

Are you saying it’s an old truck, just drive it and don’t worry about it? BTW, I put 6 degree leafspring shims in for pinion angle, because I measured angle before I started and has 8 degrees… and when remeasured came out perfectly.

 

[lars]

Are you saying it’s an old truck, just drive it and don’t worry about it? BTW, I put 6 degree leafspring shims in for pinion angle, because I measured angle before I started and has 8 degrees… and when remeasured came out perfectly.

Sounds like you measured pinion angle correctly, and no, I don’t think you need to live with it as is. But I don’t want to recommend a procedure for getting more caster that might create other problems. Typing on my phone right now, will wait until I get to a real keyboard to elaborate. I expect DirtDonk and/or James Roney may jump in as well; they both have plenty to add about this.

 

[toddz69]

Got it… that’s odd, Duff instruction videos say to lock out your Heims at opposite angles, so I did that intentionally, it’s to prevent the lock nuts from wanting to come loose while driving… you’re saying to center the Heims and tighten down lock nuts and see if it helps, correct?

I do that on heims that are rotating on parallel, or nearly parallel, axis (my trac bar, for example). I'd center them and tighten the locknuts myself. Actually, before that, I'd take the tires and wheels off and put the frame on jackstands and let the suspension go to full droop and see what kind of binding it might experience with the current configuration. It might be that I'm just seeing things and that your current situation is just fine.

Todd Z.

 

[CopperBronco]

Before I launch into yet another diatribe about how all Broncos need more caster, how Dana's quality control during the years early Broncos were in production, and how best to achieve more caster, a question: you wrote that your pinion angle is 2 degrees. Relative to what- the driveshaft? The ground? A photo taken from the side would be helpful.

Here are front and rear pinion photos, 98% of driving is just the rear, my vibration is with front disengaged and hubs unlocked / free.

 

[lars]

So. Based on your photos, the rear pinion actually looks a little high. I would expect its angle to be slightly less (say, 2 degrees or so) than the driveshaft, at normal ride height. Though it's not that far off. Since I lifted my Bronco decades ago it's always been sensitive to rear driveshaft condition. Being a mechanical engineer nerd with an iPhone I use an app called Vibration that helps me pin down where the dang vibrations are coming from. Yeah.. Luckily there is an excellent driveline shop near me and I tend to let them inspect and repair as necessary on my rear driveshaft annually.

Let's move on to the front. The photo you shared makes it look like you have a lot more, like 6-8 degrees more, than 2 degrees between the pinion and the front driveshaft. The good thing is that the pinion is low.

Now on to my diatribe(s).

Stock, early Bronco were spec'd at around 3 degrees of caster. That is marginal, as in barely sufficient, for street driving. It was a compromise. When they were first brought to market, power steering on such a vehicle was optional at best, if it was even available. The more caster, the more difficult steering at low speeds gets. So, back it off as much as one dares as a compromise. That compromise being wandering steering. Note that older Broncos had a red stripe above around 60 mph on the speedometer (I don't remember the exact number but my 1970 has it, which is a source of amusement for me these days). Early Broncos got power steering, first as an option, then standard, in the early 70's. But Ford never changed the caster spec. When the first big Broncos came out in 1978, the nominal caster spec automagically changed from about 3 to about 5 degrees. Because at that point, power steering was standard, so the engineers could increase the caster spec in favor of stability (not wandering) without concern for needing Popeye arms to steer at low speed. Point being, 5-6 degrees of caster is your friend, if you like traveling in a straight line without having to focus on it constantly. Check the caster spec for any late 70's and on live front axle vehicle. 6-ish degrees is the norm.

Speaking to quality control at Dana. My Dana 44 was a poster child. My 1970 was built with a Dana 30, but I discarded that within months of buying it in 1996 in favor of a Dana 44 from a local junkyard, back when that was still a possibility. Used OEM (could still buy them from Ford back then) rubber C bushings. Handling was frightening. Stock height, no lift, no mods of any kind. I brought it to an alignment shop for a check. Oh joy (though I didn't grasp what the numbers meant then) it was +1 on the left, 0 on the right. It should've been around 3 degrees nominally on both sides. What did I know?

Lifted my Bronco later, used the typical 7 degree bushings that never seemed to give 7 degrees of caster and screwed up the pinion angle, hated the wandering.

Then around 2003 on this site someone posted about cutting/turning the inner C's to get the caster correct. I bought and installed a set of 2 degree bushings, had the alignment numbers checked to get a baseline. This is where it gets tricky. Going back to 2 degree C bushings pointed the front pinion exactly about 2 degrees low with all that, which is close to ideal. I pulled the front axle, then cut/turned the inner C's to get 5+ degrees of caster. In 2001 around here there were no shops that could/would do that, now there are several. It was a huge PITA. But what a difference. Currently, 6 degrees of caster, 3/8 degree toe in, +0.5 degrees camber both sides. Metric 35" tires on 17" rims, I can let go of the steering at 80+ mph and it tracks straight.

 

[CopperBronco]

So. Based on your photos, the rear pinion actually looks a little high. I would expect its angle to be slightly less (say, 2 degrees or so) than the driveshaft, at normal ride height. Though it's not that far off. Since I lifted my Bronco decades ago it's always been sensitive to rear driveshaft condition. Being a mechanical engineer nerd with an iPhone I use an app called Vibration that helps me pin down where the dang vibrations are coming from. Yeah.. Luckily there is an excellent driveline shop near me and I tend to let them inspect and repair as necessary on my rear driveshaft annually.

Let's move on to the front. The photo you shared makes it look like you have a lot more, like 6-8 degrees more, than 2 degrees between the pinion and the front driveshaft. The good thing is that the pinion is low.

Now on to my diatribe(s).

Stock, early Bronco were spec'd at around 3 degrees of caster. That is marginal, as in barely sufficient, for street driving. It was a compromise. When they were first brought to market, power steering on such a vehicle was optional at best, if it was even available. The more caster, the more difficult steering at low speeds gets. So, back it off as much as one dares as a compromise. That compromise being wandering steering. Note that older Broncos had a red stripe above around 60 mph on the speedometer (I don't remember the exact number but my 1970 has it, which is a source of amusement for me these days). Early Broncos got power steering, first as an option, then standard, in the early 70's. But Ford never changed the caster spec. When the first big Broncos came out in 1978, the nominal caster spec automagically changed from about 3 to about 5 degrees. Because at that point, power steering was standard, so the engineers could increase the caster spec in favor of stability (not wandering) without concern for needing Popeye arms to steer at low speed. Point being, 5-6 degrees of caster is your friend, if you like traveling in a straight line without having to focus on it constantly. Check the caster spec for any late 70's and on live front axle vehicle. 6-ish degrees is the norm.

Speaking to quality control at Dana. My Dana 44 was a poster child. My 1970 was built with a Dana 30, but I discarded that within months of buying it in 1996 in favor of a Dana 44 from a local junkyard, back when that was still a possibility. Used OEM (could still buy them from Ford back then) rubber C bushings. Handling was frightening. Stock height, no lift, no mods of any kind. I brought it to an alignment shop for a check. Oh joy (though I didn't grasp what the numbers meant then) it was +1 on the left, 0 on the right. It should've been around 3 degrees nominally on both sides. What did I know?

Lifted my Bronco later, used the typical 7 degree bushings that never seemed to give 7 degrees of caster and screwed up the pinion angle, hated the wandering.

Then around 2003 on this site someone posted about cutting/turning the inner C's to get the caster correct. I bought and installed a set of 2 degree bushings, had the alignment numbers checked to get a baseline. This is where it gets tricky. Going back to 2 degree C bushings pointed the front pinion exactly about 2 degrees low with all that, which is close to ideal. I pulled the front axle, then cut/turned the inner C's to get 5+ degrees of caster. In 2001 around here there were no shops that could/would do that, now there are several. It was a huge PITA. But what a difference. Currently, 6 degrees of caster, 3/8 degree toe in, +0.5 degrees camber both sides. Metric 35" tires on 17" rims, I can let go of the steering at 80+ mph and it tracks straight.

Yeah, rear pinion angle is 2 degrees, front hasn’t been worked on, it was already lifted when I bought it and like that… but with it disengaged mostly does it matter? Or even disengaged can cause congestion? I could just rip it off and go for a test drive I suppose. Obviously cutting the perches off and rewelding at Right angle would be tricky, I haven’t found a single mechanic in the greater Portland area, west side specifically as I don’t want it drive 45 min to a mechanic who would do that job. There’s a few specialty shops for Broncos, but they don’t do service, only $200k builds… the best I could do is drop down radius arm brackets maybe? My Bronco drives pretty smooth for the most part, just higher speeds it vibrates around just a bit. Going to run some tests this weekend and see if it helps. One step at a time. Appreciate any input or ideas…

 

[lars]

Yeah, rear pinion angle is 2 degrees, front hasn’t been worked on, it was already lifted when I bought it and like that… but with it disengaged mostly does it matter? Or even disengaged can cause congestion? I could just rip it off and go for a test drive I suppose. Obviously cutting the perches off and rewelding at Right angle would be tricky, I haven’t found a single mechanic in the greater Portland area, west side specifically as I don’t want it drive 45 min to a mechanic who would do that job. There’s a few specialty shops for Broncos, but they don’t do service, only $200k builds… the best I could do is drop down radius arm brackets maybe? My Bronco drives pretty smooth for the most part, just higher speeds it vibrates around just a bit. Going to run some tests this weekend and see if it helps. One step at a time. Appreciate any input or ideas…

Only reason I was concerned about the front pinion angle is because of what is normally the best solution for wandering and shake in the front. You've got 7 degree C bushings but still not enough caster, which should be 5-6 degrees. By installing 7 degree bushings you've moved the pinion really low, and stil haven't solved the caster problem.

The only technically correct solution is to find a shop that can cut/turn the inner C's on your axle to get the caster correct. Go back to 2 degree C bushings. Handling will be hideous. Get an alignment check. What ever the caster numbers come back as, figure out how much the inner C's on the axle tubes need to be rotated to get to about 6 degrees of caster.

20 years ago there were no shops around here (Sacramento area) that would do that, so I did it myself. Huge job. But what a difference. As in, after that the steering self centered, no wandering, handles like a modern vehicle (still does). Now there are several shops in my area that can do that, so no way would I do it myself again, but if I had a Bronco with a stock Dana 44 I'd gladly pay someone to do that job.

 

[CopperBronco]

Thanks for input, super helpful to know… what was shocking to me was when I bought this thing it’s suspension was shot to crap, springs dropped badly, shocks, bushings cracked, ball joints crap, and alignment beyond crap, but it didn’t drive terrible… , but the alignment numbers scared me a bit, so giving it an honest go. It did have 2 degree cracked c-bushings on it before… Somehow before I wrenched on it, it kind of had figured out a way of liking being crooked and I think PO didn’t drive that much, so didn’t matter to them. I’ve got it in much better shape now thanks to all of you. Besides it wandering some, are they any major mechanical risks? I’m only a year into this Bronco and being an armchair mechanic. So much I still don’t know. What I don’t want to be is the guy who does something dumb or negligent and somebody gets hurt. If a car part breaks, or wears early, that can be replaced. Thanks again!

 

[DirtDonk]

You can still have a vibration through the steering wheel from the front. But the only things it could be that I can think of off hand would be the tires, wheels or wheel bearings.
The front end will absolutely not cause a driveshaft vibration with it unlocked.
Unless it’s not actually fully unlocking. But you can determine that easily by reaching under the front and spinning the driveshaft by hand. If it doesn’t spin by hand it’s not unlocked.

From here your rear pinion looks too high.
That will absolutely cause a vibration both under acceleration at slow speed (where you might not notice it as much) and at higher speeds too.
It can happen at higher speeds because the pinion is climbing when your engine is trying to push harder to get a vehicle with such poor aerodynamics through the wind.

Maybe a couple of more pictures would be an order. As well as another description of how you’re measuring angle.
Don’t compare the rear pinion to the output of the transfer case, or to the ground. Compare it directly to the centerline of the driveshaft.
As mentioned it should be 1 to 2° below that. Not above it.

If when you remove the rear driveshaft and put it in four-wheel-drive your drive your vibration goes away, you found your issue.

 

[DirtDonk]

And yes, we have to remember that this was originally broncosam’s thread so as to not get the two discussions confused.
But as long as some of the information talked about is helpful to both, I think it’s still a good thing.
As long as were talking apples and apples…

 

[CopperBronco]

Only reason I was concerned about the front pinion angle is because of what is normally the best solution for wandering and shake in the front. You've got 7 degree C bushings but still not enough caster, which should be 5-6 degrees. By installing 7 degree bushings you've moved the pinion really low, and stil haven't solved the caster problem.

The only technically correct solution is to find a shop that can cut/turn the inner C's on your axle to get the caster correct. Go back to 2 degree C bushings. Handling will be hideous. Get an alignment check. What ever the caster numbers come back as, figure out how much the inner C's on the axle tubes need to be rotated to get to about 6 degrees of caster.

20 years ago there were no shops around here (Sacramento area) that would do that, so I did it myself. Huge job. But what a difference. As in, after that the steering self centered, no wandering, handles like a modern vehicle (still does). Now there are several shops in my area that can do that, so no way would I do it myself again, but if I had a Bronco with a stock Dana 44 I'd gladly pay someone to do that job.

Thanks for this! Things you can’t know when you’re new… BTW, front pinion angle is approx 11 degrees (16 shaft, 85 yoke with digital protractor). Moves freely when spun by hand, and same when jacked up and axle full drooping… it gets closer of course, but spins freely by hand. So yes need to cut and turn Inner C’s to get caster and pinion angle better together, but also seems like it’ll drive fine for the time being… I haven’t noticed anything like large binding while driving… what is ideal pinion angle supposed to be on a Bronco with 2.5” lift? Is it still 1-3 degrees like the rear?

 

[lars]

Thanks for this! Things you can’t know when you’re new… BTW, front pinion angle is approx 11 degrees (16 shaft, 85 yoke with digital protractor). Moves freely when spun by hand, and same when jacked up and axle full drooping… it gets closer of course, but spins freely by hand. So yes need to cut and turn Inner C’s to get caster and pinion angle better together, but also seems like it’ll drive fine for the time being… I haven’t noticed anything like large binding while driving… what is ideal pinion angle supposed to be on a Bronco with 2.5” lift? Is it still 1-3 degrees like the rear?

Yup. Double Cardan, AKA CV style driveshafts front and rear (not getting into the nuances of those, it's been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere) should have the pinion a degree or two lower than the driveshaft. And I agree with DirtDonk's assessment that your rear pinion looks high compared to the driveshaft, but that's based on looking at the photo you posted. Could be an illusion of the photo.

As long as you aren't in 4wd the excessive pinion angle up front is irrelevant, but if you do engage the axle and drive it much the front driveshaft may not be long of this world. Maybe. Possibly.

 

[CopperBronco]

Yup. Double Cardan, AKA CV style driveshafts front and rear (not getting into the nuances of those, it's been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere) should have the pinion a degree or two lower than the driveshaft. And I agree with DirtDonk's assessment that your rear pinion looks high compared to the driveshaft, but that's based on looking at the photo you posted. Could be an illusion of the photo.

As long as you aren't in 4wd the excessive pinion angle up front is irrelevant, but if you do engage the axle and drive it much the front driveshaft may not be long of this world. Maybe. Possibly.

Thanks! Rear pinion was worse, and had drive line vibration at 40mph, put in 6 degree leafspring shims and it went away entirely… the 50+mph vibration is much more subtle, and investigating today if it’s my Heim steer install, or the drive shaft as I’ve ruled out a bunch of other stuff now. Quick question, you mentioned my locked out drag link…. On the Heim, should the drag link Heims be locked out? Or have rotational play/float? Curious if any of you all know, instructions with parts I got don’t say anything about it. Will call part supplier and ask as well tomorrow.