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Gear change and Spartan Locker Install

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lonesouth

lonesouth

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I discovered last night that the trac-loc carrier is thicker than the open carrier, requiring longer ring gear bolts. The problem is, when switching one to the other, the bolts are not the correct length. Also, the ring gear bolt holes are not threaded with a bottom tap, i.e. the threads do no go all the way down. This is where the bolt length becomes a problem. I reused my ring bolts from the LSD and the threads on the bolts wiped where there were no threads in the ring gear. The opposite could be problematic as well, where switching from open to LSD could not give enough thread engagement, causing a weak bond and could lead to the bolts backing out or breaking. Solution, get the correct length bolts.


7/8" length for light weight spools

1" length for open carriers

1-1/4" length for trac lok posi units

7/16-20 thread pitch

RH male threads
 
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lonesouth

lonesouth

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I could not find the ring gear bolts in stock anywhere in town. Used a cutoff wheel to shorten them, seems to have worked.

Dana 44 pnion nut = 1 1/8
Ford 9" pinion nut = 1 1/16
 
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lonesouth

lonesouth

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I say anywhere, but I only checked 3 places, carquest, discount, and o'rieleys.

The cut down bolts snugged up and torqued well enough.
 
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lonesouth

lonesouth

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that feeling, when you've installed the 3rd member into the axle and torqued all the nuts, then find the bearing adjustment retainers on the workbench...

dd.jpg
 
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lonesouth

lonesouth

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got it all back together, and DROVE it! tried FWD, RWD, and 4WD. FWD is very unruly, though I think that is just how FWD is in any bronco, my 73 was sketchy in FWD as well. RWD was perfect. It would slip a tire on a turn and easily in reverse. The problem was 4wd. This was on pavement, and the binding was significant. I had myself convinced that the gear ratios were significantly off front to back, so much that I pulled the rear diff after counting driveshaft rotations and believing it to be 3.50, turned out to be 4.10 once I got it on the bench. I believe the front to be ~4.11 doing the same test.

Question is, before I pull the front diff cover, how substantial is the driveline binding on pavement? Enough to slow the bronco to a stop somewhat quickly?

Reading this thread I wasn't sure whether it was normal or not.

reading this site, it looks like the behavior is to be expected. I was at a stop trying to move on pavement. It felt like it could have overcome the bind, but I didn't want to risk breaking something.

Also, when I pulled the rear diff, I found one of the caps for the rear u-joint in the driveshaft had no needle bearings in it, so I guess it wasn't a complete waste.
 
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Apogee

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4WD on dry pavement is a bad idea and can/will break something if you give it the chance. When you turn, the front travels a longer path than the rear, so whether your ratios match exactly or not doesn't matter, it will still bind.
 

DirtDonk

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...FWD is very unruly, though I think that is just how FWD is in any bronco, my 73 was sketchy in FWD as well.

What do you mean by unruly? You should be able to safely drive it in FWD only without too much drama. Was it feeling unsafe, or just not quite normal?
If the latter, then yeah, I guess that would be "normal" for FWD.

It would slip a tire on a turn and easily in reverse.

What are you describing here?

The problem was 4wd. This was on pavement, and the binding was significant.

Yes to the binding, but no to the significant. Even though it's not exactly recommended, you should at least be able to drive it in four wheel drive for a bit without binding. We're only talking about 1 or 2 points after all. 4.11 vs 4.09 or 4.10 depending on which Dana axle.

I had myself convinced that the gear ratios were significantly off front to back, so much that I pulled the rear diff after counting driveshaft rotations and believing it to be 3.50, turned out to be 4.10 once I got it on the bench.

Not sure what we're talking about here first of all. Didn't you just rebuild these diffs? And if so, didn't you note what gear ratios were being installed? Or are these axles just put in as-is? From this thread, they should have been all apart. Doesn't sound like you changed gear ratios, so maybe you didn't think to count the teeth while they were being worked on. Is that what happened?

I believe the front to be ~4.11 doing the same test.

Rear 9" should actually be 4.11 instead. What was your tooth count?
Front 44(?) should be 4.09 (45 - 11 teeth) for the 44.

Question is, before I pull the front diff cover, how substantial is the driveline binding on pavement? Enough to slow the bronco to a stop somewhat quickly?

No. It's there, but not so substantial that it would pull you to a stop just going around the block. How far did you drive it before you felt the bind?
Of course, this is the reason it's written everywhere that you should not drive it in 4wd on dry pavement or other high-traction surfaces for extended periods where tire slip won't occur now and then. You need the slip to release the tensions. Eventually something slips or something breaks.
But I still don't think you should feel binding quickly.

I was at a stop trying to move on pavement. It felt like it could have overcome the bind, but I didn't want to risk breaking something.

Good call. Shift out of 4wd or unlock the hubs, but don't drive it in 4wd anymore. Hopefully you didn't drive it far enough to cause trouble. Probably not, but it's good you caught it anyway.

Also, when I pulled the rear diff, I found one of the caps for the rear u-joint in the driveshaft had no needle bearings in it, so I guess it wasn't a complete waste.

Definitely not! Sounds like you didn't replace the u-joints while you had it out then? How many miles on the current setup? Was it dry and rusty-powder looking inside? Glad you caught it.

Good luck. Let us know what you find in the front diff.

Paul
 
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lonesouth

lonesouth

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yes, i built these from scratch with used gears and diffs I picked up here. I would have sworn that I had verified the ratio several times along the way.

Unruly, when I would give it about 1/4 throttle, it would pull heavily to one side. This could be due to the alignment being off, but not sure, I installed a new t-style steering linkage at the same time and eyeballed the tires, drag link and tracbar are nearly perfect. I need to drive it some more to figure this one out. I was more focused on the binding than the steering. In 2wd, steering was fine.

The worst of the binding, I now recall, happened when the wheels got turned. At that point, stopped with the wheels turned, I could not turn the wheels back to straight. I believe the driveline was so bound up that the axle u-joints could not allow the knuckles to straighten out. After unlocking the hubs, I was able to straighten the wheels.

Slipping a tire was in reference to my other thread about spinning a tire. The 4.11 gears provide a bit more pep, and the spartan further reduces traction in a turn. This behavior was expected.

The u-joint in the rear driveshaft had what looked like silver putty in the cap. It was as if the needle bearings had been ground into a paste. Mileage is unknown. Picked up a moog at lunch and will replace tonight.

I'm going to go ahead and pull the front diff cover and verify the gearing up front. Little cost for piece of mind that the gears are the correct ratio.
 
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lonesouth

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decided it will be easier to reinstall the rear diff and driveshaft, jack up both ends, mark the tires and rotate the back, the front should match it for rotation.
 

DirtDonk

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Be ready for inconsistent results with both wheels off the ground. With limited slips and lockers your results should actually be easier to obtain accurately, but any time one wheel spins at a different rate or in the opposite direction of the other one, your results may vary.
But you should be able to figure it out that way.

Paul
 
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lonesouth

lonesouth

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Turning wheels off the ground, the back spun about 1/4-1/3 turn faster than the front. Pulled the chunk, again, and checked the gear.

gear_zpsbv36iqtg.jpg


befuddled, I turned the pinion on the bench and counted again. 3.5 turns for one rotation. But that can't be, the gear is clearly marked 410. disassembled the 3rd member and counted teeth. AHHHH 35/10.

Ordered a set of richmond 4.11, should be here friday. Also going to pick up some new bolts while I'm at it.

Good news is that I can probably have the gears back in and the bronco ready to go in about 2-4 hours. I've gotten pretty good at snatching out the 3rd now.
 

okie4570

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Spartan up front here, and unless you're on dirt, gravel, etc. you'll swear something isn't right I would imagine. Twin sticks are wonderful by the way :)
 
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lonesouth

lonesouth

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twin stick is easily top 5 best upgrades for a bronco
 
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lonesouth

lonesouth

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so far, none of the parts houses I have checked have ring gear bolts in stock. Napa. carquest, pep boys, discount auto parts, autozone, no one has them in stock. Autozone was able to do a special order and have them here by tomorrow. Yukon bolts, $1.99 each.
 
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lonesouth

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Amazon's two days shipping, wasn't going to get here till monday, so they saved me about $50 by ordering from rock auto instead and I'll get it on tuesday.
 

DirtDonk

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gear_zpsbv36iqtg.jpg


befuddled, I turned the pinion on the bench and counted again. 3.5 turns for one rotation. But that can't be, the gear is clearly marked 410. disassembled the 3rd member and counted teeth. AHHHH 35/10.

Actually, I don't see a 4 10 there. I see a 4210, in the middle of the sequence "D2TW 4210 * A" which is a Ford part number, presumably for a 3.50 ratio ring gear.
Along with those numbers you should also see a date stamp code, as well as an "offset" size (or whatever it's called) where they give you clues as to what shims to start with for proper setup, due to manufacturing variations that they account for so the end-user spends less time setting it up.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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In prior years, that gear ratio carried a "C2Axxxx" number (A for auto or generic) but they basically stopped putting 3.50's in cars and had them primarily as a truck option for the 9" diff, so converted it to a "T" part category in about '70 or so when it became more truck-specific.

Paul
 
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